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Re:They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955) by nostrademons on Friday November 13, 2020 @12:48PM (#25085100)
To elaborate on aazaa's comment: think of the labels "patriot" and "terrorist" and think of how frequently they correlate with "winner" and "loser".

The Founding Fathers were patriots, because America is now the dominant world superpower. But there are a number of groups that attempted to do to America exactly what America did to the British. Daniel Shay, Tecumseh, Sitting Bull, the entire Confederacy, the Anarchist movement of the early 1900s, the Business Plot of 1933, McCarthy, Vietnamese nationalism, Osama bin Laden. How does history remember them now?

Re:They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955) by alavesto on Friday November 13, 2020 @01:30PM (#25085665)
This isn't to be taken as a show of support at all, but I had similar thoughts when the story of the kidnapping plot against Michigan gov Gretchen Whitmer broke. The militia had been heavily encouraged by multiple undercover FBI agents-provocateur who themselves were integral in engineering the plot - and it's really unclear whether the militia would have even considering doing such a thing without these agents egging them on and offering to provide explosives.

If the British Empire had the technology and infrastructure of today's intelligence agencies, the founding fathers would have been arrested as terrorists before they could get 10 people in a room together. There would have been some undercover agent of the Crown showing up to meetings trying to convince George Washington that they needed to go kill the king - and history would remember them all as nothing more than evil terrorists justly apprehended for plotting violence against the state.

Re:They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955) by awb on Friday November 13, 2020 @08:08PM (#25089387)
If the FBI did that, that's entrapment and might be an eligible defense. However, if the FBI assisted or even encouraged an existing plot, then I don't think it would qualify.

> Entrapment is a practice whereby a law enforcement agent or agent of the state induces a person to commit a "crime" that the person would have otherwise been unlikely or unwilling to commit

> Depending on the law in the jurisdiction, the prosecution may be required to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant was not entrapped or the defendant may be required to prove that they were entrapped as an affirmative defense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrapment

Re:They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955) by ip26 on Friday November 13, 2020 @02:27PM (#25086352)
I'm not deeply versed in the Whitmer case, but Federal agents are supposed to follow a set of guidelines to avoid entrapment, which is what you're describing & is supposed to cause the case to be thrown out.
Re:They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955) by spinny on Saturday November 14, 2020 @05:50AM (#25091474)
Remember, remember, the 5th of November ...
Re:They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955) by triceratops on Friday November 13, 2020 @03:41PM (#25087213)
> How does history remember them now?

You've picked a set of figures whose historical legacy spans a very wide spectrum. At one end (largely positive) are Tecumseh and Sitting Bull, and at the other are (largely negative) are Osama and the Confederacy. Shays sits somewhere in the middle, mostly because other than history buffs no one even knows who that is.

Re:They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955) by nostrademons on Friday November 13, 2020 @04:45PM (#25087870)
That was deliberate. The point of this sub-thread is that historical narratives get written and re-written by the victors, and the "right" side of history depends on when you're located in history.

Tecumseh and Sitting Bull have positive legacies because Native Americans are not realistic threats to the United States at this point. They weren't always viewed as such: see for example the (fraudulent) Speech at Tuckabatchee, which indicates how people might've viewed Tecumseh in 1860:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tecumseh#Speech_at_Tuckaubatch...

Re:They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955) by justinator on Friday November 13, 2020 @01:11PM (#25085438)
Sitting Bull is in interesting company.