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Re:Biden Wins Presidency, Ending Four Tumultuous Years Under... by rayiner on Saturday November 07, 2020 @11:58AM (#25016262)
We just had an election with widespread mail in voting with extended deadlines and historic turnout. And if anything Trump’s support among non-white voters went up. What does that suggest re: the scale of voter suppression?
Re:Biden Wins Presidency, Ending Four Tumultuous Years Under... by toomuchtodo on Saturday November 07, 2020 @11:59AM (#25016271)
The GOP actively sought, across the country, to handicap or prevent mail and absentee voting to suppress votes that typically fall to Democrats. The president tweeted about unproven voter fraud and to stop counting votes. If that isn’t attempts at brazen voter suppression, I don’t know what is.

Democracy was stress tested, and it still worked.

Re:Biden Wins Presidency, Ending Four Tumultuous Years Under... by rayiner on Saturday November 07, 2020 @12:07PM (#25016339)
Oregon and Colorado have successfully done mail in voting for years, with safeguards like ballots having to arrive by Election Day and signature verification. Democrats fought to get rid of rules like that all over the country, and succeeded in Pennsylvania.
Re:Biden Wins Presidency, Ending Four Tumultuous Years Under... by toomuchtodo on Saturday November 07, 2020 @12:15PM (#25016430)
Requiring ballots arrive by Election Day is unreasonable when the executive branch is handicapping the postal service for partisan reasons.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/04/2020-presidential-election-p... (Postal Service data shows poor mail-in ballot delivery rate in key swing states, judge suggests Postmaster General DeJoy might have to testify)

Re:Biden Wins Presidency, Ending Four Tumultuous Years Under... by googthrowaway42 on Saturday November 07, 2020 @12:26PM (#25016523)
Requiring ballots to arrive by Election Day is the only reasonable thing to do. Otherwise you leave open the possibility of fraud as has been alleged in PA with multiple USPS workers coming forward and testifying that they witnessed backdating of mail in ballots.

In Washington state where I used to live has had universal mail in ballots for many years and they had ballot drop boxes that were swept on election day. There was extensive information that was put out informing people of the last day they could mail their ballots in.

Re:Biden Wins Presidency, Ending Four Tumultuous Years Under... by toomuchtodo on Saturday November 07, 2020 @12:30PM (#25016569)
Election law doesn’t agree with your assertion.
Re:Biden Wins Presidency, Ending Four Tumultuous Years Under... by googthrowaway42 on Saturday November 07, 2020 @12:38PM (#25016653)
I was making a qualitative judgement. However, to your point election law differs form state to state so what you've said is nonsensical.

In PA this is under review by the state and US supreme court: https://www.supremecourt.gov/orders/courtorders/110620zr_g31...

Welcome to a crash course in civics.

Re:Biden Wins Presidency, Ending Four Tumultuous Years Under... by gamblor956 on Saturday November 07, 2020 @12:59PM (#25016872)
This is actually not under review by the PA state courts, and the case was rejected by the SCOTUS twice already. Moreover, the segregated votes were not included in this projection, so the result of the case is irrelevant to the outcome of the election.

Welcome to a crash course in reality.

[dead]
Re:Biden Wins Presidency, Ending Four Tumultuous Years Under... by gamblor956 on Saturday November 07, 2020 @01:11PM (#25017018)
False. That was actual facts put out by the Pennsylvania secretary of state, and reiterated by the local officials in every single district in the state of Pennsylvania.

All of the ballot-counting has been under the watch of observers on both sides of the aisle, including especially multiple Republican observers. Republican observers have confirmed that ballots that arrived after the deadline have either not been counted or have been counted separately from votes received on/by election day. If those segregated ballots were included in the count, Biden's lead would exceed 100k in PA.

The actual Republican partisans on the ground with actual knowledge of what's going on acknowledge that nothing illegal has happened in the PA vote count.

Your guy lost fair and square. Accept it and move on.

Re:Biden Wins Presidency, Ending Four Tumultuous Years Under... by googthrowaway42 on Saturday November 07, 2020 @01:13PM (#25017026)
False. Find me the statement. All they said was that the ballots had been segregated, not that they hadn't been counted.
Re:Biden Wins Presidency, Ending Four Tumultuous Years Under... by gamblor956 on Saturday November 07, 2020 @01:58PM (#25017544)
I don't need to prove anything, since you're the one claiming that procedures were violated despite first-hand testimony from Republican observers that procedures were not.

The late-arriving ballots were both physically segregated, and counted separately from the timely ballots by separate government employees, in pairs including one Democrat and one Republican. Before numbers are reported, the numbers in each batch are confirmed by employees locally and at the state level to make sure they match the number of ballots in that batch, and these numbers are reviewed by Democratic and Republican employees.

Segregated numbers have not been reported in this manner because the courts ordered them not to, so the numbers are kept separately and were not included in the official count. Because of the court order, most of the segregated ballots have not yet been counted.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/pennsylvania-ballots... (noting that Alito's order had no effect because that was what the ballot officials were already doing as a result of earlier state court orders.)

Re:Biden Wins Presidency, Ending Four Tumultuous Years Under... by googthrowaway42 on Saturday November 07, 2020 @02:12PM (#25017776)
All you've said is that the "numbers" are kept separate, not that they haven't been reported in the official count.

You could very easily just show me where these two separate counts are being recorded on the PA SOS website but you cannot because it does not exist.

Why not just admit that you're wrong?

Re:Biden Wins Presidency, Ending Four Tumultuous Years Under... by gamblor956 on Saturday November 07, 2020 @02:18PM (#25017875)
I literally can't do that because as a result of the court orders the PA SOS isn't allowed to report the segregated count, just like they can't report the numbers associated with other provisional ballots. They can count the ballots internally, but such numbers are segregated from the official count and get added later (if at all).

I can say that Republican observers and lawyers on the ground in PA confirm that the official numbers do not include segregated numbers. If they did, Biden's lead wouldn't even be close. They would have called PA for Biden on Wednesday.

If you choose not to believe the GOP's own observers and lawyers, that's your choice, but I'm not going to indulge in your conspiracy fantasies.

Re:Biden Wins Presidency, Ending Four Tumultuous Years Under... by googthrowaway42 on Saturday November 07, 2020 @02:21PM (#25017917)
> PA SOS isn't allowed to report the segregated count

The court order does not say that.

Why lie? Furthermore the SCOTUS order was required because the districts felt like they didn't have to comply with the state level order so even if your interpretation is correct you don't know how many of the counted ballots should have been segregated and not counted towards the official count in the first place.

Re:Biden Wins Presidency, Ending Four Tumultuous Years Under... by gamblor956 on Saturday November 07, 2020 @02:32PM (#25018106)
Yes, it does. https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/524900-supreme-...

From TFA: "It was unclear how much of an impact the order might have on Pennsylvania election boards, who Boockvar had previously ordered to segregate and separately count late-arriving ballots."

The state courts had already ordered ballot segregation prior to the ballots being counted.

Furthermore the SCOTUS order was required because the districts felt like they didn't have to comply with the state level order so even if your interpretation is correct you don't know how many of the counted ballots should have been segregated and not counted towards the official count in the first place.

This is simply false. As every news site noted, including Fox News, districts were already doing this because the PA supreme court said that ballots should be segregated.

And moreover, it was not a SCOTUS order. It was a Justice Alito order. The entire SCOTUS did not weigh in.

Re:Biden Wins Presidency, Ending Four Tumultuous Years Under... by gamblor956 on Saturday November 07, 2020 @12:41PM (#25016688)
Requiring ballots to arrive by Election Day is the only reasonable thing to do. Otherwise you leave open the possibility of fraud as has been alleged in PA with multiple USPS workers coming forward and testifying that they witnessed backdating of mail in ballots.

No, there are allegations of USPS workers coming forward from conspiracy boards. In truth, there were no such USPS workers testifying, or even claiming, any of that. Even FOX News and One America couldn't find any evidence supporting the existence of these supposed USPS workers.

And on another note: military votes have been allowed to arrive after election day since at least WWII. Are you saying that most of the military votes cast in the past 6 decades are fraudulent?

And on a final note: it hasn't been possible to backdate postdates for at least a decade, as the USPS records when mail is received separately and in addition to the postdate, and it isn't possible to backdate that data unless you have access to the USPS database. Considering that the USPS is run by a Trump appointee, it is very unlikely that Democrats have that sort of access.

Re:Biden Wins Presidency, Ending Four Tumultuous Years Under... by googthrowaway42 on Saturday November 07, 2020 @12:47PM (#25016751)
Re:Biden Wins Presidency, Ending Four Tumultuous Years Under... by gamblor956 on Saturday November 07, 2020 @01:05PM (#25016939)
Ah, Project Veritas, an organization whose founder has been convicted of fraud and who has a history of falsying and modifying evidence.

Fox News and One America refused to air these videos because they couldn't track down any of these supposed whistleblowers and in fact, Fox News said they couldn't find any proof that these supposed postal workers even exist.

Also, you do know that the USPS Postmaster is a huge Trump Supporter so any allegations of backdating involving the Postmaster would relate to backdating Republican ballots, not Democratic ballots? And in such case, Project Veritas has provided evidence of voter fraud by the current sitting president of the USPS.

Next time, you may want to think before you link.

Re:Biden Wins Presidency, Ending Four Tumultuous Years Under... by googthrowaway42 on Saturday November 07, 2020 @02:14PM (#25017794)
> Ah, Project Veritas, an organization whose founder has been convicted of fraud and who has a history of falsying and modifying evidence.

False on both counts.

Re:Biden Wins Presidency, Ending Four Tumultuous Years Under... by gamblor956 on Saturday November 07, 2020 @04:13PM (#25019460)
Re:Biden Wins Presidency, Ending Four Tumultuous Years Under... by gamblor956 on Saturday November 07, 2020 @12:17PM (#25016452)
Signatures are still required in Pennsylvania, and many states have allowed ballots to arrive after the election for decades, including 3 of the states still uncalled (NV, NC, and Georgia).

Moreover, military votes have been allowed to arrive after election day in nearly all states since at least WWII.

Re:Biden Wins Presidency, Ending Four Tumultuous Years Under... by rayiner on Saturday November 07, 2020 @01:02PM (#25016905)
It’s one thing to allow a limited number of ballots to arrive for military or absentees. But states that conduct elections primarily by mail (Oregon, Colorado) require ballots to arrive by Election Day.
Re:Biden Wins Presidency, Ending Four Tumultuous Years Under... by gamblor956 on Saturday November 07, 2020 @02:08PM (#25017703)
That is false. Washington and Utah also vote primarily by mail and both allow ballots to be received after the election.

Washington allows ballots to be postmarked the day of the election: https://www.sos.wa.gov/elections/dates-and-deadlines.aspx

Utah allows ballots to be postmarked the day before the election, so long as they are received before noon of the day of the county canvass (generally, the day after the election but as late as ten days after the election, depending on the county). https://www.vote.org/utah/

(I have participated in election litigation in multiple states. I know more about election law than you do. You will not win this battle.)

Re:Biden Wins Presidency, Ending Four Tumultuous Years Under... by pseudalopex on Saturday November 07, 2020 @01:31PM (#25017183)
California, Utah, and Washington don't.
Re:Biden Wins Presidency, Ending Four Tumultuous Years Under... by koolba on Saturday November 07, 2020 @12:25PM (#25016521)
> Signatures are still required in Pennsylvania,

Requiring signatures yet refusing to reject ballots for mismatched signatures isn't much of a requirement: https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/23/pennsylvania-court-...

Re:Biden Wins Presidency, Ending Four Tumultuous Years Under... by gamblor956 on Saturday November 07, 2020 @12:33PM (#25016603)
Signature-matching results in the rejection of more authentic ballots than invalid ones.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/10/signature-...

The point of requiring signatures was never about preventing fraud, since it was never an issue historically. The requirements were issued in the 20th century to reject black votes, as at the time the requirements were passed, many black voters couldn't write.

Re:Biden Wins Presidency, Ending Four Tumultuous Years Under... by rayiner on Saturday November 07, 2020 @01:05PM (#25016944)
States like Oregon and Colorado imposed signature requirements in mail in voting systems designed in the last few decades. Switzerland requires signatures for mail in votes too.
Re:Biden Wins Presidency, Ending Four Tumultuous Years Under... by koolba on Saturday November 07, 2020 @12:37PM (#25016643)
I’m not arguing that signature verification is particularly consistent.

I’m saying it being non-existent disqualifies claims that signatures on ballot envelopes prevent fraud.

Re:Biden Wins Presidency, Ending Four Tumultuous Years Under... by chris11 on Saturday November 07, 2020 @12:16PM (#25016443)
> Democracy was stress tested, and it still worked.

The fake allegations of voter fraud and the extensive efforts to suppress votes will damage future elections. And the presidential election survived attacks, but the senate could be impacted.

Re:Biden Wins Presidency, Ending Four Tumultuous Years Under... by googthrowaway42 on Saturday November 07, 2020 @12:09PM (#25016355)
There have been serious irregularities that suggest voter fraud in Democrat controlled precincts within swing states.
Re:Biden Wins Presidency, Ending Four Tumultuous Years Under... by callinOutLiars on Sunday November 08, 2020 @07:18PM (#25030310)
If you are talking about the “fraud” donnie diaper keeps making up then I’d hate to tell you that they have been fact checked and proven wrong.
Re:Biden Wins Presidency, Ending Four Tumultuous Years Under... by effingwewt on Saturday November 07, 2020 @01:54PM (#25017497)
Here is an article from four years ago with various republicans openly admitting to votee suppression.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/04/07/re...

edit- spelling.