You have to include transfer density to account for platform load factors, and Times Square's situation of having 5 of the 7 Midtown Manhattan lines transferring there, all of them having both express and local platforms, on top of the massive local draws for boarding, and the location of the Port Authority's bus terminal virtually guarantees that it's going to the busiest station complex in perpetuity.

By contrast, the Hudson Yards station is a terminus station of a single line. That means traffic is largely going to be directly from the single platform entrance (there's only one bank of escalators to the surface) to the waiting train, or vice versa. Even if it's potentially going to be busy, there is very little need for platform loitering, and certainly not for the massive overbuild of platform and mezzanine that exists today.

The argument for Hudson Yards (I don't actually agree) is that while Times Square is certainly a very busy station, most of the movement that happens there is transferring. And Times Square has nearby stations that other people also use for exiting and entering; Hudson Yards is a long hike from the next closest subway station, and 34th St is not a particularly great walk, with all the Lincoln tunnel traffic and whatnot.

Hudson Yards is also the only station next to the Javits Center, so it has the massive traffic from large convention events like the Auto Show and NYCC.

It’s only going to be a terminus station for a few decades. That line will end up in Chelsea.

What a waste. If anything it should end up in New Jersey.

Every fantasy subway map I've seen has extended the 7 into New Jersey. Extending the 7 down into Chelsea makes no sense, because you already have 4-track subway trunks on 8th and 7th, and the island is narrowing as you head downtown. If you need another Midtown N-S trunk, the logical choice is the 2nd Ave, as the east side is underserved (and that side of the island bulges out as you head downtown instead of disappearing). Even then, the return on investment for the southern portions of the 2nd Ave Subway is kind of shaky.

The Chelsea plan is mostly to link up 7+L, though preferably you'd bring the L up and through the Far West Side. The L's higher capacity and it could use a new, higher throughput terminal.

Linking the 7 and L is an even more ??? idea, because the 7 and L are different loading gauges, and the fact that both originate on the east side of the East River means anything that now becomes a 1-seat ride takes too long to be worth actually sitting in 1 seat for that long.

I think he's suggesting linking them for a transfer. Which doesn't actually make sense either, because the only new destination this opens up that saves a transfer is Hudson Yards.

Hudson Yards is the second or third largest office submarket in Manhattan, the one with the newest spec towers, and on top of that is bigger than most American downtowns are.

Long term the L should be extended north, at least to Columbus Circle if not beyond; the Far West Side lacks subway service, and currently the 7th Avenue Express (2/3) is also considered to be above capacity. Or it was in a pre-COVID world, anyways.

Either way. But the 7 already points south now!

Let me know when New Jersey is willing to have the line come to them. You recall what happened...

Yeah, I'm aware that ARC was cancelled. The fact that a trans-Hudson subway extension is not really viable anytime in the next few decades doesn't mean that the extension to Chelsea is an alternative worth building, though; it just means that the reality is going to be that Hudson Yards will be a terminus for quite some time.

They have to dig two new tunnels in the next 20 years. Just sweeten the deal and make it three. The new guy could make it happen sooner. The bigger deal is that MTA will have to implement zoned fares to keep from undercutting NJT. That is the unspoken feature that OMNY will be bringing to the city.

The other big deal is that the MTA is not fully funded by fares, and getting bi-state coordination on dedicated taxes is a fool's errand (see: WMATA in DC)

If New Jersey needs a subway tunnel across the Hudson, PATH would probably be a better place to start.

That’s a great point and one I hadn’t considered!

I’m certainly hopeful for a NJ extension too, just not optimistic.

I completely agree.

> You have to include transfer density to account for platform load factors, and Times Square's situation of having 5 of the 7 Midtown Manhattan lines transferring there, all of them having both express and local platforms, on top of the massive local draws for boarding, and the location of the Port Authority's bus terminal virtually guarantees that it's going to the busiest station complex in perpetuity.

Don't forget the shuttle to/from Grand Central Station. Times Square St has to be the most trafficked station.

> and certainly not for the massive overbuild of platform and mezzanine that exists today.

Better that than an oversized Jets Stadium where subpar football gets played 8 times a year.

I always assumed that Hudson Yards would serve as a terminus for future lines to new jersey. But I guess political will and federal funding is required for that.