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Re:The Case Against More Ethanol (2016) by GuB-42 on Monday November 02, 2020 @05:54AM (#24966658)
Electric motors are better and it has been the case for more than a century.

The real problem is powering them. Batteries have a terrible energy density compared to hydrocarbon fuels and charge slowly, fuel cells don't seem to take off, and using an internal combustion engine to power an electric engine doesn't really solve anything. In fact, the simple fact that powering an electric engine with an ICE may be a good idea speak volume about both the superiority of electric engines and the difficulty of powering them.

So yes, the electric motor's dominance is inevitable, but we are not there yet. Battery technology is just starting to become viable, but electric cars are still heavy and expensive, have limited range and we don't really have a good, universal charging infrastructure yet. It is not because of "the best efforts of politicians", it is because it is technology that is just starting to become viable.

Re:The Case Against More Ethanol (2016) by snarf21 on Monday November 02, 2020 @12:37PM (#24970729)
Does anyone have data on if we could build a small ICE that is strictly a generator? I know one issue is variable power needs but if there are say two banks of batteries and the one is running constantly at a fixed rate as more of a slow charge and the other is currently handling demand, would that work? Assuming that the banks could switch as one gets depleted and it begins charging.
Re:The Case Against More Ethanol (2016) by jfk13 on Monday November 02, 2020 @01:09PM (#24971075)
Sounds like you want a diesel-electric locomotive. Or a smaller version of one, maybe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_locomotive#Diesel–elect...

Re:The Case Against More Ethanol (2016) by GloriousKoji on Monday November 02, 2020 @12:56PM (#24970931)
Sounds like a series hybrid card to me. Off the top of my head I can only think of two cars with this design, the Chevy Volt and BMW i3 with range extender.
Re:The Case Against More Ethanol (2016) by dragonwriter on Monday November 02, 2020 @12:58PM (#24970944)
> Does anyone have data on if we could build a small ICE that is strictly a generator?

Obviously, ICEs that are strictly used to crank generators are common.

If you mean “is there data on whether that works in what is otherwise a battery-electric car”, that's called a series hybrid, and there are several production examples, including the Chevy Volt.

Re:The Case Against More Ethanol (2016) by gwbas1c on Monday November 02, 2020 @01:38PM (#24971444)
Yes: They are called "portable generators."

Long answer: Before WWII, there were luxury cars built this way. Manual transmissions were much harder to drive, so some luxury cars used a generator/motor pair as an automatic transmission.

WWII needs for copper drove them out of the market; and they never came back because it was simpler to just mate an oversized engine with a horrible automatic.

Re:The Case Against More Ethanol (2016) by kayodelycaon on Monday November 02, 2020 @12:52PM (#24970896)
Why have the ICE be strictly a generator? If you have one, it’s far more efficient to use it to drive the wheels. Toyota’s Prius effectively does this using batteries during periods when using the ICE would be inefficient. (Generally, it isn’t perfect.)
Re:The Case Against More Ethanol (2016) by VBprogrammer on Monday November 02, 2020 @01:32PM (#24971385)
> If you have one, it’s far more efficient to use it to drive the wheels.

I don't think this is as cut and dried as you think. Generators are ~90% efficient. Gearboxes and differentials aren't 100% efficient either. If you are already carrying enough motor to propel you without an engine then you can size the ICE closer to average load than peak load potentially getting back a bit of efficiency.

Re:The Case Against More Ethanol (2016) by gbrown on Monday November 02, 2020 @01:01PM (#24970986)
The idea is that you can tune/simplify the motor to run at one or a few RPMs, and also simplify the drive train.
Re:The Case Against More Ethanol (2016) by snarf21 on Monday November 02, 2020 @01:35PM (#24971417)
Right, the intent would be to run at only a single very efficient RPM for the purpose of generation with no directional power transitions.
Re:The Case Against More Ethanol (2016) by hinkley on Monday November 02, 2020 @01:21PM (#24971239)
There's a Moore's Law for batteries that doubles their utility every 12-15 years. We've been arguing about batteries since the mid 90's. We have 3-4 times as much power to work with now. It'll happen in my lifetime, but I don't know if my parents will see it.

If we can build batteries that don't source new cobalt from the DRC, (by using none or recycling) that would remove one ugly skeleton from the closet.

Re:The Case Against More Ethanol (2016) by gwbas1c on Monday November 02, 2020 @01:34PM (#24971408)
Your argument is very outdated.

UBS Predicts EV Price Parity In 2024: https://cleantechnica.com/2020/10/22/ubs-predicts-ev-price-p...

In summary: Battery-electric cars will be "worth it" in 2022, and cost the same as a gas car in 2024.

Also: Tesla is very close to making its batteries cost the same as a gas car. What they are going to do is turn the bulk and weight of the battery into a structural member of the frame. (Recently announced on Battery Day.)

Re:The Case Against More Ethanol (2016) by sokoloff on Monday November 02, 2020 @02:09PM (#24971816)
GP made 5 fairly reasonable claims about EVs today. You counter by asserting that his arguments are "very outdated" citing as evidence an article that predicts sometime in the future 2 of the 5 claims will be around parity and a Tesla claim that a third may achieve parity sometime unspecified in the future.

Sometime in the future, some of those arguments might be outdated, but they don't strike me that way now.

We still will have EVs with limited range and a lack of universal charging infrastructure. (I say this as the overall happy owner of a LEAF, but it's a bit of a toy rather than a car that I can rely on for all of my travel needs, relying on my wife's car and aircraft for distance travel and using the LEAF only around town.)

Re:The Case Against More Ethanol (2016) by Devils-Avocado on Monday November 02, 2020 @06:10AM (#24966759)
No, the real problem is that that the externalities of Internal Combustion Engines - noise and air pollution - are fully absorbed by society and not adequately captured with fuel taxes.

Increase fuel taxes to the level necessary for carbon neutrality and ICE vehicles look immediately unappealing.

Re:The Case Against More Ethanol (2016) by hedora on Monday November 02, 2020 @01:36PM (#24971424)
A $1 per gallon tax on gasoline is enough to make it carbon negative:

1 gallon burnt emits 20lbs of CO2, and a ton is 2000 lbs, so 100 gallons of gasoline emits a ton of CO2.

With current technology takes $15-75 to pull a ton of CO2 out of the atmosphere, or $0.15-0.75 to remediate a gallon of gasoline.

I argue a $1/gallon tax is the minimum viable, since we’ll need a carbon negative economy for the foreseeable future.

It’s not clear to me that $1 more per gallon of gas would kill ICE cars. If I ran a big auto maker, I’d actually lobby for such a tax, since it’s easier than retooling all the lines, and it pushes the cleanup costs onto legacy customers.

I personally think the tax should be paid upfront when you buy a new ICE car (assume it’ll last 100,000-200,000 miles), and not at the pump.

Re:The Case Against More Ethanol (2016) by belorn on Monday November 02, 2020 @03:08PM (#24972598)
Here in Sweden we pay about $4.5 per gallon in taxes.

ICE is still the norm in Sweden, with EC standing for 3% of all personal cars. EC have however taken a significant chunk of new sales, with last month being 35%. It also help that all government workplaces over a certain size has free EC charging, and even some shopping centers.

Re:The Case Against More Ethanol (2016) by zdragnar on Monday November 02, 2020 @11:51AM (#24970139)
That doesn't make batteries better, it just makes ICE worse. Battery research is improving, but at the end of the day we are just trading fossil fuels for massive mines- especially cobalt and nickel (with today's tech, who knows tomorrow).

At least CO2 can be scrubbed from the atmosphere.

Re:The Case Against More Ethanol (2016) by toomuchtodo on Monday November 02, 2020 @12:50PM (#24970874)
Lithium is evaporated from brine ponds, and cobalt is actively being phased out in battery chemistries because of its role as a conflict mineral. Battery storage for all use cases is objectively better than burning a fossil fuels.

> At least CO2 can be scrubbed from the atmosphere.

There is no evidence we can scale this up besides planting trees and hoping for the best.

Re:The Case Against More Ethanol (2016) by pessimizer on Monday November 02, 2020 @12:47PM (#24970827)
> That doesn't make batteries better, it just makes ICE worse.

This doesn't mean anything. Better is always relative.