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Re:Caste discrimination in some of Silicon Valley's richest ... by ponker on Saturday October 31, 2020 @12:45PM (#24952882)
My opinion: admittance to a country is a gift. Don’t give it to people who won’t fully integrate.
Re:Caste discrimination in some of Silicon Valley's richest ... by renewiltord on Saturday October 31, 2020 @01:21PM (#24953277)
Nice. My opinion as an immigrant is the opposite: I'm clinging to this rock like a tenacious fucking barnacle. And as far as I know, I probably have a better right to it than you. At least I earned it. You were just born into it. I made it here.

You can pretend like you gifted me this but in reality you didn't. I took it through my hard work. And you can try to stop me but I'll beat you, even though you have the advantage of having been born here. Because I'm better.

Re:Caste discrimination in some of Silicon Valley's richest ... by mlyle on Saturday October 31, 2020 @01:47PM (#24953562)
Man, surely there's some kind of middle path without all the forced adversarial stance, isn't there?

People "born into it" had a whole lot to say about policy, and provided you the opportunities to be here. You seized them. It should be a good deal for both sides, but to the extent that each tries to make it adversarial and zero-sum, the benefits of the deal evaporate for everyone.

Re:Caste discrimination in some of Silicon Valley's richest ... by renewiltord on Saturday October 31, 2020 @01:52PM (#24953624)
Sure. I see it as Tit-for-Tat with default cooperate. We can both play for the win together and I'll start there. Or someone else can start a fight that I will finish.
Re:Caste discrimination in some of Silicon Valley's richest ... by mlyle on Saturday October 31, 2020 @04:19PM (#24954868)
I love internet tough guys.
Re:Caste discrimination in some of Silicon Valley's richest ... by renewiltord on Saturday October 31, 2020 @06:12PM (#24955623)
Haha! Whatcha gonna do about it, huh? Let's take this outside. I'll put you in the ground.

Just playing, just playing.

Re:Caste discrimination in some of Silicon Valley's richest ... by Bhilai on Saturday October 31, 2020 @02:31PM (#24953996)
Great comment, I feel the same way. If someone has problems with me not integrating into their culture, they can take it up with their government.
Re:Caste discrimination in some of Silicon Valley's richest ... by ponker on Saturday October 31, 2020 @09:27PM (#24956587)
They have, that is exactly what turned Donald Trump into the President, despite the fact that he is so obviously a moron.
Re:Caste discrimination in some of Silicon Valley's richest ... by ponker on Saturday October 31, 2020 @09:26PM (#24956583)
If you’re in the US looks like you have fully integrated and fit right in!
Re:Caste discrimination in some of Silicon Valley's richest ... by romanoderoma on Saturday October 31, 2020 @01:49PM (#24953591)
People saying this BS have no idea of what it means to leave everything you know behind and how many home-cultures are simply better than the ones immigrants find themselves living in, but they had to leave because (put the name of some super power) decided that it was the right spot to start a war and destroy everything to seize control of some resource or out of spite to some competing super power

People think they are gifting you, because they don't realize how irrelevant they are and how little control have in their lives, let alone the lives of others.

P.s. if we wanna talk about integration, Americans, for example, should watch themselves abroad.

They are absolutely the less capable of understanding what "this is not the way we do things" means.

Re:Caste discrimination in some of Silicon Valley's richest ... by mlyle on Saturday October 31, 2020 @03:07PM (#24954283)
> P.s. if we wanna talk about integration, Americans, for example, should watch themselves abroad.

I think expats anywhere should integrate. That doesn't mean to give up everything from your home culture, but it doesn't mean to form a walled enclave with little cultural interaction, either.

Travelers/tourists/etc, is different. I don't expect any integration-- just a basic effort at courtesy.

Re:Caste discrimination in some of Silicon Valley's richest ... by romanoderoma on Saturday October 31, 2020 @08:34PM (#24956408)
> I think expats anywhere should integrate

That's exactly what I was talking about.

I will talk about Americans simply because I know what they do when they live abroad in my country, for many reasons, one being they hang out in the same neighborhood I was born and raised.

Probably there are similar problems with people from my country somewhere, but let me tell you what I know first.

Here in Italy American tourists are less of a problem, they do silly things sometimes, but who doesn't in an mostly unknown country on the other side of the World?

As you said, the real problem come from expats, students for example, but also military personnel who usually form walled enclaves.

If you hang out in certain neighborhoods in Rome, it's very easy to spot the "Americans only" places. There are quite of few of them.

The reasoning is simple: they come here in Europe for the culture and the relaxed way of living (Barcelona is ranked very high among expats from US exactly for that reason) but they don't have the cultural tools to handle the lack of restrictions they have to face home.

Drinking at the age of 16 is quite normal in Europe, it is not in USA and more often than not Americans are the ones sh*tfaced outside bars and clubs or engaged in alcohol fueled scuffles.

One can argue that's what youngsters do, we are not used to that, but at young age (almost) everyone is forgivable.

Except when they kill police officers in the streets of course

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/27/world/europe/italy-police...

But there's also another cultural issue with them: they are used to be a ruling country, they don't accept to be questioned or put in their place or be simply asked to act as a reasoning person.

Consider that for a US citizen until not long ago Canada, Mexico and many cruises were passport free (but not the contrary), consider the fact that in Europe there are many US military bases, consider that police officers in Europe are not heavily armed and you end up with situations like this one

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2020/01/23/us-troops-vic...

When I was in LA my friends told me to avoid certain parts of the city because they were dangerous, "how much dangerous?" I asked, I come from Rome after all, I know how to handle myself, "you can get shot" they told me.

Turns out LA this year will top the 2009 for number of homicides and reach the staggering number of 300 homicides in a year.

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-10-29/gangs-ho...

In Chicago on June 2020 there have been 18 homicides in 24 hours.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2020/6/8/21281998/chicago...

I don't know but I suppose that it is something that it is considered I won't say normal, but not far from something in USA they expect from a city like LA.

Maybe not 300 homicides in a year, but 200? Maybe yes.

In Rome, a bit smaller than LA, more or less the same size of Chicago, there were 12 homicides in the whole 2019.

In the entire Italy (60 million people) in 2019 homicides were "only" 276.

I couldn't believe it when I was staying there that dangerous really meant "Escape from New York" dangerous.

My point is it's easy to say to expat to "integrate" when you are living in a violent society and where police on the street is armed to the teeth enforcing God only knows what law.

It's much less easy to adapt to foreigners when they are the ones not integrating and bringing their violent culture at your doorstep.

Re:Caste discrimination in some of Silicon Valley's richest ... by cushychicken on Saturday October 31, 2020 @12:48PM (#24952924)
What's "full integration", though?

Should they not be allowed to cook their own food? Speak their own language? Practice their own faith? Hold their own values?

Re:Caste discrimination in some of Silicon Valley's richest ... by ponker on Saturday October 31, 2020 @01:04PM (#24953103)
My father fully integrated but does all of those things. If all of your friends are from your culture, if you watch TV only from your own culture, etc. you’re not fully integrated. If you do the host country stuff AND your native stuff you are.
Re:Caste discrimination in some of Silicon Valley's richest ... by pc86 on Saturday October 31, 2020 @01:21PM (#24953288)
How many hours of American television are you going to require immigrants to watch? Lets use folks from Mexico as an example. Does Spanish-language television created in the US count? What about English-language content that was created in Mexico but for Mexican-American consumption? How many non-American friends do you have? What ratio of American friends does an immigrant need to have before it's okay for them to be here?

This is xenophobic bullshit and has no place on a forum like this.

Re:Caste discrimination in some of Silicon Valley's richest ... by romanoderoma on Saturday October 31, 2020 @01:37PM (#24953463)
I've watched thousands of hours of Americans television over the past 45 years, read a lot of their authors, especially underground and subcultures like comics, I've heard a lot of their music, immersed in a lot of their culture, have many friends who are Americans, I lived there for a few years, but I still think that fully integrating with US culture is a big mistake, because it's simply not relevant enough to give up other cultures.

The more you watch it, the more it's people shooting each other over a bar fight or people killing themselves to get a promotion at work or competing in general over things that have no real connection with happiness.

That's why many don't care about it and spend their time with people more like them that share a common background.

Understanding each other is more important that following every single rule to "integrate" in a culture that have basically no historical background other than avoiding taxes in their homeland.

Mexicans, on the other hand, have been there for millennia.

Re:Caste discrimination in some of Silicon Valley's richest ... by Retr0spectrum on Saturday October 31, 2020 @01:09PM (#24953152)
I do not watch TV from my own culture, am I not fully integrated in my native country?
Re:Caste discrimination in some of Silicon Valley's richest ... by Bhilai on Saturday October 31, 2020 @02:28PM (#24953952)
And did Europeans integrate fully into the native Indian culture before they migrated to the American continent?
Re:Caste discrimination in some of Silicon Valley's richest ... by giantg2 on Saturday October 31, 2020 @12:49PM (#24952931)
That's basically what immigration restrictions do. Only it is done through restricting the number of people from any one area rather than require complete cultural whitewashing.
Re:Caste discrimination in some of Silicon Valley's richest ... by romanoderoma on Saturday October 31, 2020 @12:47PM (#24952919)
I guess that's exactly what native Americans should have done

EDIT: I'm sensing a lot of guilty conscience from the downvotes (always appreciated when it's about exposing atrocious ways of thinking) but this time it was simply explaining what the natural consequence of that sentence woul be: US would not exist.

And maybe all of us would be better off, who knows...