Surely you own money?
> It's not about the work required to create it or even the work required to copy it. The point is that it's not scarce.
Right, the copying part is "free". The thing that software licenses try to protect, the part which is not free, is the effort that goes into making software. The end product is not scarce, but the materials that go into it are. So the thing that these licenses are doing is slapping on a "price" at a strange step in the pipeline–but only because copyright law is strange that way, and for open source projects it is hard to add value to the creation process anyways.
Recordings of thoughts can be duplicated at will, and so are not scarce.
Before someone points out that money is a recording of a promise, I'll mention that multiple recordings of a contract don't make multiple contracts :)
> So the thing that these licenses are doing is slapping on a "price" at a strange step in the pipeline–but only because copyright law is strange that way
If the law is strange, maybe abolishing is a reasonable reaction? We could conceivably have laws placed at a better step in the pipeline.
Yeah, but fractional-reserve banking ;) I'll stop here before we beat this dead metaphor any longer.
> If the law is strange, maybe abolishing is a reasonable reaction? We could conceivably have laws placed at a better step in the pipeline.
I think pretty much everyone is in agreement with "the law is not great and we should change it", possible most of all the GNU folks. The issue is that this change is slow to come (and somewhat unclear whether it will come at all?) The whole point of the GPL is to use copyright law as a weapon until we can make a world where copyright law doesn't need to exist–I guess a sort of world where you keep around a military in the hopes that at some point people will realize war is useless and we should all be friends. So not using copyleft is being a pacifist (actually, I think this very word appears in the post) but the point is that if you're doing that you're kind of sitting around hoping for a better world while people with guns come and steal your stuff. Which is a valid position, I guess, but I don't think you should be surprised when people come up to you and ask, "why?"
Money as a physical item is tangible, money as a ledger entry has more complicated rules of “ownership”. For example, you do not actually own the money in tour bank account, you have a claim on the assets of your bank equal to the amount on the ledger. Other forms of ledger money are equally bizarre in the limit. Suppose you use a weak address with bitcoin and someone transfers “your” bitcoin to a different account. Its not clear that they committed a crime and there is no recourse for the former “owner.” Similar cases abound with ETH.
No you don't, just like you can't own a kilogram or a mile. Money is the government-approved measurement unit for value.
That's not true. Time is scarce. Good ideas are scarce (maybe because intelligence is scarce too). Beauty is scarce. Quality of life is scarce. Perfection is terribly scarce...
And I consider that I own my time, for example. I can either consume it myself or I can use it to serve something or someone, probably in exchange of some amount of money.
Good ideas are uncommon but I wouldn't call them scarce, since they can still break the rules of scarcity and multiply without bound (i.e. no true limit on the number of people having the exact same idea).
There is also no theoretical limit in the number of cars we can produce, for example. I would even say that it is easier to produce a new car than a great idea.
The same way anything else can be; “ownership” is the legal right to exclude others from some set of actions with regard to something. Whether the something is tangible or not is basically immaterial, except as tongue set of possible actions that might be governed by ownership.
> Intangible things aren't scarce.
So? Property is about structuring incentives to create value, it is not intrinsically tied to scarcity (except that property—the legal exclusive privilege—is inherently scarce even if it's subject is not.)
You are not contradicting his idea of property, what you say only has an impact on how to use the current system. It's not relevant to the conversation.
The idea is to define property, to get the first principles before deciding how the Law should be to protect those principles.
To put it another way: that the current laws can be used to create a perversion of property that allows artificial scarcity, does not say anything about the nature of property itself.
> property—the legal exclusive privilege
There is a concept of property that predates and transcends your legal system, so this definition is insufficient.
I think we just have a fundamental disagreement. That's not how I see property. I see property as a vehicle for peaceful conflict resolution. And I do see it as intrinsically tied to scarcity.
Even if we accept that that is the sole purpose of property, I think it's indisputable that the desire to control due to sweat equity in a creation vs. the desire to free ride on it because it is “not scarce” is a source of conflict in the types of things covered by IP that is in need of resolution.
I think the important bit here is that my outlook does not require such an obvious inconsistency.
Money in exchange for property as a lubricant for exchange of property (or the ownership and control over that property) is a vehicle for peaceful conflict resolution.
Peaceful conflict resolution only works when all parties to the conflict desire peace. In the presence of a conflict among peace-desiring parties, property is the notion that one party has the right to determine disposition of the tangible item in question. If they didn’t have a concept of property that they all assented to, then they would be more likely to fight about it.
> Money in exchange for property as a lubricant for exchange of property (or the ownership and control over that property) is a vehicle for peaceful conflict resolution.
The right to exchange for consideration presupposes property rights. You’re agreeing with the OP
There is scarcity in the relative value of intangible things.
I think your argument would be more convincing with some justification as to why scarcity ought to be necessary for property protections.
Property can be conceptualized as a social technology, an idea that is useful for solving problems and accomplishing goals. In that alternative view, we should apply property protections in cases where it's useful, regardless of scarcity.
Well, I don't even know what it means to own something that is non-scarce. What does ownership mean? To me, it's exclusive control (or right to control) some particular piece of property. This is a natural thing that occurs with physical property because of scarcity. But it does not occur naturally with ideas. The only way it happens with ideas is if scarcity is created artificially, e.g., by a state.
I'd say "Against Intellectual Property" by Stephan Kinsella is a good deeper dive on this. But some may find it unorthodox.
The point is that there are useful views on property that do not require the object or thing to be scarce. For example in the US property is legally the bundle of rights people have in relation to an object or thing (including ideas).
Edit: And you're right, there's nothing "natural" about IP. It's just a tool that may or may not be useful.
in the case of tangible goods, it makes sense because often one person's use precludes another person's use, and each use has a physical effect on the object in question. One person's use of a software doesn't exclude another person from using the same software, so the 'right to exclude' actually means the right to punish someone for using a software or idea. Exclusive use of physical goods makes sense because they are rivalrous. Exclusive use of an idea relies on a complex of relations including a regulatory state with a coercive apparatus. If someone wants to use my house they deprive me of my use of that house to the extent that they use it, and its natural that I would use force to prevent it. In this view, the use of the state coercive apparatus is on my behalf as a person who needs a house but lives in a society that doesn't want houses to belong to anyone strong enough to take them from the (former) owner. If someone wants to use a design that I have created and patented they aren't preventing me from using the design, they are just refusing to pay a license fee for my patent.
Essentially treating physical goods like properties that can be owned allows people to use them and predict their availability and incentivizes the creation of more physical goods, allowing intangible goods to be treated like property incentivizes rent-seeking behavior and allows people to collect rents on goods that could be duplicated for little to no cost.
It may be more useful to consider how copyright has been shaped by powerful interests to reflect their desires rather than how property rights in physical goods arise naturally from the existence and use of rivalrous/scarce goods.
That depends. You could view the idea in it's abstract, intangible form; and then the manifestation of that idea in the real word, as symbols (letters, numbers, drawings, notes,...) which reflect that idea. When you download code, you ultimately make a copy of manifestation represented as electromagnetic signals encoded as digital symbols.
The process of having a novel idea consists of assembling mental constructs together as a thought proces and then expressing that through shared social constructs (language, art, symbols,...). What is protected by IP is your claim to be the first person - the original author - having had the idea. Not the idea itself.
The opposite of that is not making that distinction, collapsing the process of making copies of the manifestation of an idea, and having the idea itself into one. This would imply that being the first to have constructed a novel idea is no argument for a claim to intellectual ownership.
The real problem with copyright, though, isn't making that first claim. It's the abstract notion that rights to claim IP can be extended and transferred. Which creates a very different can of worms.
I think it's just a manner of speaking. In order to create this protection, you have to elevate ideas to some kind of property by creating an artificial scarcity. Or at least, that's the result produced by a system of intellectual property. That artificial scarcity, introduced by a coercive state, is what I'm opposed to.
> The real problem with copyright, though, isn't making that first claim. It's the abstract notion that rights to claim IP can be extended and transferred. Which creates a very different can of worms.
Yes, removing the latter while keeping the former would be a HUGE improvement on the status quo I think. But I still see the former as problematic. :-)
1. Ideas as a secret. You can create scarcity at the initial step of sharing. You can even create monopolies at this step. The framework for this is NDAs. The vital difference here is that once broadcast an idea can no longer be exploited by the author. And once shared with a third party, repeated use can not be controlled. 2. Authorship as attribution. This is done by preventing plagiarism.
Replacing IP law with NDA contract law and attribution protection would still allow selling software but not subscriptions for software you run locally. Also it would allow everone to record radio broadcasts, which is illegal now but was never enforced.
I strongly believe the initial sharing of an idea/software/music/etc. Is the right step to create scarcity. Once something is provided to the public, the public should be able to use it in any way as long as attribution is preserved.
That sounds like a take on the discussion about the 'social contract': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract
I think that both positions are valid. That it is, it's fair to dismiss giving a part of your freedom towards a coercive state. But at the same time, you also forfait the future possibility that you might want to exert exclusive rights over your own intellectual work.
It totally works out if that's a decision made on a personal level. But when you expand that towards a first principle that applies to everyone, you run into issues. After all, authors relinquish control over who gets to use their work and how it gets to be used. And not all contexts in which one's creative work is consumed are equal.
This would range from opposing the use of one's music during political manifestations, to opposing the use of one's code in both private and public ventures which are ethically questionable.
When it comes to software, you can see this in efforts to create copyleft licenses with extra terms & conditions that restrict the use of how software is used. For instance, the Hippocratic License. [1]
[1] https://firstdonoharm.dev/
The net result is a contract with an inherent tension between giving as much freedom as possible and being aware of the consequences and ethical considerations of doing so to the point that intellectual property rights are exerted to enforce "desired behaviour" on the part of the licensee.
Removing copyright as a principle entirely removes the option to create such uneasy solutions, but at the same time, it also gives absolute freedom to re-purpose creative works in ways which are - arguably - counter to the interests of the public.
I think the idea of code (or information in general) being intangible has some problems. Point me to information which exists without being encoded in physical phenomena. All information we've ever encountered exists in the form of specific configurations of matter and energy, and is therefore tangible, just as a house or a car is. It is just barely tangible, since there are many more physical configurations which can reasonably encode information than there are physical configurations corresponding to a usable car.
The term scarcity as usually applied to information is also somewhat problematic because it is not applied consistently between "physical" goods and information. Yes, the fact is that information is easy to copy because it is easily encodeable in a wider range of physical configurations. But we cannot reasonably ignore the effort required to produce it if we want to make a fair comparison. The quality we are interested in is how hard it is to obtain, to have something in the first place, not just whether it is easy to copy. Code is easy to copy, but is hard to produce, and hence I would argue it is still a scarce resource in this sense.
> My use of a physical good inherently inhibits your use.
Not if you first make your own copy of the physical good, the same way you do with information. You said it yourself: you can use your copy of the software without inhibiting someone's simultaneous use. It's just that information has the boon and burden of being easily copyable once you've initially obtained it.
I can recite Harry Potter without the book, the story has no scarcity to it. Similarly, I can write a for loop without reading it’s structure from a hard drive.
Could you have recited Harry Potter easily before you've heard it the first time?
What we call "intellectual property" is not "property" at all - it's simply a government-enforced monopoly on use of certain ideas (in case of patents) or their expressions (for copyright and trademarks).
So it's government granting specific rights over intellectual items not the items themselves.
The name is confusing, it's rights granted over intellectual property ("writings and discoveries") to encourage the creators to share them for the common good.
I'm not sure if we are agreeing and just missing each other on the words, it if there is something more substantive between us?
Maybe you don't like my phrasing? But fundamentally, intellectual property is a form of property that includes intangible things. How can intangible things be owned? Intangible things aren't scarce.
> Software isn't an idea. It required real work of a scarce-ish resource (software dev time) to create that software. You could make the argument that software, unlike a physical good, can be copied at almost no cost after creation
It's not about the work required to create it or even the work required to copy it. The point is that it's not scarce. That is, I can use a copy of the software without inhibiting your simultaneous use of it. This is a fundamental difference from a physical good. My use of a physical good inherently inhibits your use. This creates conflict and property is a vehicle for resolving that conflict peacefully.
> I'd like to put forward the argument that software _patents_ are the IP that most closely resembles the IP the author seems to hate
I undoubtedly hate software patents. But I probably hate patents in the healthcare industry even more, because I perceive them as probably causing even more harm than software patents.
My article is just biased towards issues in software because that's what I have the most experience with.