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Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by wegs on Monday October 26, 2020 @07:34AM (#24895000)
There isn't a magical different userbase Linux has to serve which has somehow bizarre needs not served by thoughtfully-designed older software, but which newer, poorly-designed software somehow meets.

Yes, we need a newer web browser, but that could run on old-school Linux/Unix just fine. Aside from that, there isn't anything wrong with nineties Linux which couldn't have been brought up to modern standards with a bit more discipline.

Someone decided ALSA (or OSS, it doesn't matter) was rough to deal with, so they build Pulse and JACK on top of it, rather than a modest expansion of ALSA. Someone didn't like the network layer, so they build a userspace wrapper, and someone didn't like that, so they wrapped it up in a GUI.

At the end of the day:

1) Everything is slow, requiring literally more than 100x the resources it once did.

2) Everything is complex, with layers upon layers, and text files with comments "This is managed by my hack. DO NOT EDIT THIS BY HAND. I keep the exact same data elsewhere, in my own config file, since I couldn't be bothered to read what's in the line below."

3) Everything is brittle and hard-to-understand. I knew how nineties Linux booted. Today, the logic is distributed among dozens of layers, mostly because people wanted to reinvent new things, rather than polishing/improving/fixing old ones. Different apps go for the wrong layer, and tutorials point to the wrong ones too.

Now Ubuntu is throwing its hands up at the mess, and building snap to hide all this under yet. another. layer.

As a footnote, ALSA was just about the last time this happened right, with it replacing OSS while maintaining compatibility.

Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by sergeykish on Monday October 26, 2020 @08:02AM (#24895175)
Maybe you should fine community that shares your views.

I don't use pulseaudio, networkmanager, desktop environment, works perfectly in Arch Linux [1]. Arch has great wiki, it is correct. System is quite transparent.

I am fine with systemd but, for example, Void Linux [2] uses runit, Alpine Linux [3] uses OpenRC and is compiled statically.

Arch Linux pacman serves my needs perfectly, it is quick, it shows only relevant information. AUR provides ready made PKGBUILDs.

Lots of Linux distributions is its strength. It allows people with niche requirements find its home. We are far better members of societies when supporting our system than grunting.

[1] https://www.archlinux.org/

[2] https://voidlinux.org/

[3] https://alpinelinux.org/

Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Monday October 26, 2020 @09:34AM (#24895972)
> Lots of Linux distributions is its strength.

Unless you want to ship something, troubleshoot something, or figure out how something works without hours of googling.

Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by account42 on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @10:10AM (#24907561)
> Unless you want to ship something

I have never had problems distributing binary builds for Linux. There are a number of system libraries that are backwards compatible: glibc, asound, libGL, etc. - test on the oldest you want to support and any other libs you just ship yourself. And that would not be different with only one distro either unless you only care about one release of that distro.

Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by sergeykish on Monday October 26, 2020 @09:52AM (#24896136)
Would you better not able to solve at all?

Ship and troubleshoot solved by distro maintaires. Niche products solved by Flatpak and its runtimes.

Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Monday October 26, 2020 @10:07AM (#24896287)
I'll stick with platforms that don't require third party volunteer maintainers just to be able to run software, thanks.
Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by sergeykish on Monday October 26, 2020 @10:11AM (#24896331)
See, you have choice and enjoy it. So do I.

What I find strange is sitting on the place one does not like. There are so many choices around.

Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by wegs on Monday October 26, 2020 @10:12PM (#24903891)
A bit of poking suggests:

1) I'm not ready to jump installed systems to arch right now.

2) Next system I install will probably try arch.

Thank you!

Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by account42 on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @09:59AM (#24907466)
> Arch Linux [1], Void Linux [2], Alpine Linux [3]

Gentoo is feeling left out. It's the OG distro for those who have strong opinions on how their system sould work but not strong enough to do eveything by hand.

Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by sergeykish on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @11:13AM (#24908174)
wegs reminded me experience with Ubuntu. I've started with GNOME, tried XFCE, Openbox, system become brittle and it raised questions like "How to configure WiFi without DE?".

I've switched to Arch Linux, base install covers network configuration. It gave me stable platform, I can grow my knowledge, I can fix my system.

Void Linux and Alpine Linux are just examples of what could match voiced concerns. I lot of people recommend Manjaro, looks like a simple way to try Arch based distro. Some problems stem from upgrading release, Debian Testing could help. But I have not tried them.

I've tried Ubuntu, I don't like distribution upgrades, default theme, constant experiments on users. Gentoo is my first distro, as C++ dev at that time, compilation was fascinating. I still enjoy 3 commands joke [1], looks like it is possible to install binary packages these days. I've tried Alpine, I don't like apk, systemd and glibc are good enough for me. I've tried OpenBSD, hardware support was not as good as on Linux. I'm playing with NixOS but I am so used to Arch.

And I want to stress, each of these system has something I enjoy. It is just me who is driven by minimizing negative points.

[1] http://bash.org/?464385

Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by account42 on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @09:57AM (#24907451)
> As a footnote, ALSA was just about the last time this happened right, with it replacing OSS while maintaining compatibility.

Nah, even ALSA was a needless overcomplicated mess. They should have just built on top of the super simple /dev/dsp. Instead we got new incompatible APIs wile OSS apps were left with requiring exclusive access to your sound card.

Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by utxaa on Monday October 26, 2020 @06:05PM (#24902045)
i agree with your point. however alsa needed a multiplexing layer, or the equivalent. whereas pulse was the answer i don't know.
Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by kasabali on Saturday October 31, 2020 @06:15PM (#24955645)
> alsa needed a multiplexing layer

It had dmix.

Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by umanwizard on Monday October 26, 2020 @08:05AM (#24895204)
I think you would enjoy OpenBSD.
Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by wegs on Monday October 26, 2020 @09:04AM (#24895698)
Computers aren't things I enjoy. They're things I stomach. I think I'd use OpenBSD if I were confident that after setting it up, it worked reliably, without changes, for the next few decades, with transparent system upgrades.

Part of that is working Bluetooth, power management, webcams, video conferencing, OBS, and similar. Historically, OpenBSD was behind Linux on working reliably.

Debian used to do this before:

1) It fell behind on hardware support, as laptops took over desktops; and

2) Ubuntu/Fedora started putting out massive numbers of half-baked technologies, and everything building atop those.

I switched to Ubuntu, without Gnome, but increasingly, things don't work without Ubuntu's UX, and snap shows a future I don't want to head down anymore.

I'll look into arch linux, as someone suggested.

Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by umanwizard on Monday October 26, 2020 @09:20AM (#24895841)
Fair enough.

Webcams and power management work fine on OpenBSD (assuming there exist drivers for your hardware), but Bluetooth isn’t supported at all.

What I like about it is the simplicity of everything. If you want to change your mouse sensitivity, you add a line to a particular file in /etc. If you want to autojoin a particular WiFi network, you add the SSID and password to a particular file in /etc. If you want to start a daemon on boot... you get the idea. No massive complex configuration systems with giant blobs of XML that nobody understands.

Unfortunately the flip side is that things move more slowly — they won’t support Bluetooth until someone writes code that meets the system’s bar for correctness, simplicity, reliability, documentation, etc. — which might be never. But the stuff that does work is fantastic.

If hardware/software support requirements tie you to more mainstream OSs, I do agree with other posters that Arch is the closest thing to what you want, but it’s still far from perfect.

Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by wegs on Monday October 26, 2020 @11:44AM (#24897410)
On that list, I can live without Bluetooth.

Do you know if:

1) Zoom works? Linux has a blob which does.

2) OBS works? This is critical.

3) How is video support with ATI/Nvidia? Will my multimonitor setup break?

The other thing which scares me is the manual upgrade process. On my systems, I've done apt-get update/dist-upgrade for a quarter century now, with never an issue.

Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by umanwizard on Monday October 26, 2020 @01:14PM (#24898516)
1) There isn’t a standalone binary, but you might be able to get the web client working in Chromium. I’m not sure.

2) I don’t know.

3) AFAIK it should work.

Using the BSDs as a workstation, rather than a server, is a bit niche. Like Linux, but even more so. So unfortunately it’s still a labor of love and a lot of modern stuff won’t be supported.