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Re:Sacklers–who made $11B off opioid crisis–to pay $225M in ... by BaronVonSteuben on Thursday October 22, 2020 @06:35PM (#24864018)
I know everybody loves to hate on the Sacklers, but my life was dramatically better when I had access to opioids. Because of the "crisis" it has gotten really difficult to get them, even for people who need them. There are days when it's difficult to do much more than lie in bed in agony, but nobody beyond a small community of other pain sufferers seems to care.

I'm at least grateful for the few good years I did get thanks to opioids, before they became radioactive. I hope some day we can swing the pendulum back toward compassion a bit.

Everybody seems to want politicians and cops (DEA) deciding who should get them and who shouldn't. That may be an impossible mindset to change.

Re:Sacklers–who made $11B off opioid crisis–to pay $225M in ... by kennywinker on Thursday October 22, 2020 @06:42PM (#24864060)
I hear what you're saying, but it feels like you should be placing your blame on the sacklers too - if they hadn't pushed opioids on people who didn't need them, fueling the crisis, then there would not have been this backlash you describe.

Like, we shouldn't be mad at opioids, we should be mad at drug pushing profiteers.

Re:Sacklers–who made $11B off opioid crisis–to pay $225M in ... by BaronVonSteuben on Thursday October 22, 2020 @06:45PM (#24864083)
That's a reasonable point, although if they hadn't helped make doctors more comfortable with using them, then I may not have ever gotten them in the first place as they would be stingy with them like they are now. Hard to know where I would have landed.
Re:Sacklers–who made $11B off opioid crisis–to pay $225M in ... by mtalantikite on Thursday October 22, 2020 @07:32PM (#24864491)
Did doctors not prescribe opioids for pain management before the Sacklers? My understanding was that they did but were hesitant, which considering the nature of opioids seems entirely reasonable.

When I had routine surgery a few years back the doctor insisted I take a prescription for Oxy, even though I told him I was fine. I filled it at his insistence and within a couple days could feel my body building dependence and craving more. I switched to ibuprofen as it freaked me out to feel how strong it was. It seemed very irresponsible to prescribe Oxy for something as mild as my case.

For debilitating chronic pain? For sure, these need to available. If anything Purdue pharma made this situation worse for those that actually need these drugs.

Re:Sacklers–who made $11B off opioid crisis–to pay $225M in ... by ethanbond on Thursday October 22, 2020 @07:07PM (#24864283)
“make doctors more comfortable with using them” is a bit of an understatement.
Re:Sacklers–who made $11B off opioid crisis–to pay $225M in ... by ponker on Thursday October 22, 2020 @10:34PM (#24865465)
The Sacklers lied to doctors and told them that OxyContin wasn’t addictive. They and their henchmen should be strapped to a gurney and sent off with a IV drip of OxyContin.
Re:Sacklers–who made $11B off opioid crisis–to pay $225M in ... by elipsey on Thursday October 22, 2020 @07:30PM (#24864476)
TL;DR: I think it is reasonable to blame Purdue for the reduced access to opioids we are now stuck with.

Purdue caused more addiction to occur, which in turn caused reduced access to the opioids that existed prior to the creation of Purdue's nuisance product.

Also, perverse incentives caused by the patent and licensing system motivated them to make OxyContin unnecessarily addictive in it's formulation and dosing schedule, in order to engage in patent "ever-greening" of an existing substance.

Oxycodone has been around for a long time, but was doesed and administered more safely in older products.

Purdue did some pretty perverse things to support their patent and regulatory rationale for OxyContin. To gain approval as a superior and patent-able alternative to the other extant gerneric hydrocodone and oxycodone products, it was claimed to require less frequent (but larger) doses. The result was that large numbers patients found that when taken as directed it provided superior pain relief, followed by a return of pain, in conjunction with hours of opioid withdrawals until the next dose. Early on in the product's life cycle doctors were encouraged to increase the dose but not the dosing schedule when patients complained, in part because the alternative would have undermined the rationale for the existence of the product.

Although this was probably an undesired side effect from the point of view of Purdue, they could hardly have designed a better way to cause drug addiction. Millions of people took this product and many became addicted. Purdue went far out of their way to publicize people as criminals rather than address the fundamental problem with the way the product was administered. It seems to be evidenced that the more effective administration schedules of other already existing products cause less addiction, so at the margin, Purdue caused many more drug addicts to exists than would have otherwise.

If they had not done this, or had been willing to adequately address the problems, we would probably still have easier access now to the opioids that already existed. The problem has grown to such a scale that it is now very hard to "put the genie back in the bottle."

Re:Sacklers–who made $11B off opioid crisis–to pay $225M in ... by rhizome on Thursday October 22, 2020 @08:03PM (#24864706)
I think it might be even worse than that, that everything they did rolled back pain care. Law enforcement was already on a moralizing crackdown on pain doctors in the 90s and 2000s, and any ground that was gained in justifying pain care in that context was then stomped on by Purdue. It's one thing if they burned their own bridges, but to burn the bridges of all of your customers is a new level in retail aggression. "If we aren't the ones to give it to you, you can't have it at all."
Re:Sacklers–who made $11B off opioid crisis–to pay $225M in ... by rubyfan on Thursday October 22, 2020 @06:50PM (#24864131)
Agree. The notion that this is just free market rewarding business people providing some market need is beyond the pale.
Re:Sacklers–who made $11B off opioid crisis–to pay $225M in ... by bananabreakfast on Thursday October 22, 2020 @07:07PM (#24864280)
While you're clearly in pain and vindictive for lack of access to effective treatment, putting "crisis" in quotes like it's a manufactured epidemic with no real impact is extremely disingenuous.

In 2018 ~130 people died every day in the US overdosing on opioids[1]. I'm sure they're effective for you but if people are not responsible enough to be trusted taking them without killing themselves then you might as well be arguing to legalize heroine for treatment as well. It would probably be even more effective.

And for the record I do think it probably should be legal for treatment anyway.

[1] https://www.drugabuse.gov/drug-topics/opioids/opioid-overdos...

Re:Sacklers–who made $11B off opioid crisis–to pay $225M in ... by bredren on Thursday October 22, 2020 @07:27PM (#24864445)
Just so this doesn’t come off like too radical an idea: legalization of all drugs has been a position of The Economist since 1989. “Legalize, Control, Discourage.”

https://www.economist.com/leaders/1989/01/21/hooked-on-just-...

Re:Sacklers–who made $11B off opioid crisis–to pay $225M in ... by api on Thursday October 22, 2020 @07:55PM (#24864651)
The majority of opioid deaths are due to fentanyl or cut opioids, something that would not exist if there were a regulated legal market.
Re:Sacklers–who made $11B off opioid crisis–to pay $225M in ... by brandonmenc on Thursday October 22, 2020 @07:46PM (#24864584)
> In 2018 ~130 people died every day in the US overdosing on opioids

Alcohol kills literally twice that number of people per day and is a factor in nearly half of all violent crime and is a quarter of a trillion dollar market, and yet we seem to fine with that trade-off even though it has absolutely ZERO therapeutic application.

> putting "crisis" in quotes like it's a manufactured epidemic

The epidemic might not be manufactured, but given the numbers re: alcohol the outrage certainly seems to be. It's a moral panic, imo.

Re:Sacklers–who made $11B off opioid crisis–to pay $225M in ... by Chozenlaruso on Thursday October 22, 2020 @07:32PM (#24864492)
From your link:

"including prescription pain relievers, heroin, and synthetic opioids such as fentanyl"

So recreational drug abusers are included in the count? I believe the OP was only taking prescription drugs.

Is there a count somewhere of just the overdoses on prescribed opioids?

Re:Sacklers–who made $11B off opioid crisis–to pay $225M in ... by ska on Thursday October 22, 2020 @07:48PM (#24864602)
It's tricky to meaningfully separate these cases, as many opioid addictions start with prescriptions and move to more available opioids when the prescriptions end.
Re:Sacklers–who made $11B off opioid crisis–to pay $225M in ... by dodobirdlord on Thursday October 22, 2020 @08:05PM (#24864724)
This is substantially less common than is widely believed.
Re:Sacklers–who made $11B off opioid crisis–to pay $225M in ... by ska on Thursday October 22, 2020 @08:48PM (#24864999)
This varies a lot by area, but it isn't rare.
Re:Sacklers–who made $11B off opioid crisis–to pay $225M in ... by makomk on Thursday October 22, 2020 @07:36PM (#24864509)
From what I can tell, the link between Purdue Pharma and the Sackler's campaign to get opioids prescribed to patients with pain - and indeed, their use to relieve pain in general - and the widespread opioid addiction and overdoae crisis seemed to be extremely tenuous and mostly pushed for political reasons. Basically, we wanted someone big and high-profile to blame that fitted into all our nice neat existing narratives about evil megacorporations and the wealthy, and plenty of journalists and prosecutors were willing to give that to us.
Re:Sacklers–who made $11B off opioid crisis–to pay $225M in ... by DanBC on Thursday October 22, 2020 @07:32PM (#24864490)
OxyContin/oxycodone (30mg tablet)

2002 8.8 million pills

2011 781.5 million pills

The US didn't experience a massive increase of numbers of people in pain.

Re:Sacklers–who made $11B off opioid crisis–to pay $225M in ... by freedomben on Friday October 23, 2020 @10:27AM (#24869841)
You may have a point here but it's hard to know without more context. For example: why only OxyContin/oxycodone listed here? oxycontin was still a fairly new drug in 2002. Also there are numerous other opioids available, many of those "new pills" might have been replacing other opioids. Also you seem to completely rule out the possibility that there was untreated or under treated pain out there (which I strongly suspect is the case).

Again I'm not saying you're wrong, just that it's not possible to know from the context in your post alone.

Re:Sacklers–who made $11B off opioid crisis–to pay $225M in ... by heymijo on Thursday October 22, 2020 @07:09PM (#24864303)
I think that maybe then you too should be mad at the Sacklers.

They intentionally and knowingly deceived the market that opioids were safe. Had they not done that maybe the opioid epidemic would not have happened and you could still have access to the medicine that you are grateful for.

Please do read up on how horrible they are.

Re:Sacklers–who made $11B off opioid crisis–to pay $225M in ... by dnautics on Thursday October 22, 2020 @07:35PM (#24864504)
do you have a reference to just how bad they were? I'd like to learn more. This whole sackler thing has been scaring me shitless because as a biochemist thinking about going back into biochemistry, my brain runs around in circles about how badly a small bit of uncertainty could be turned around in circles to screw me over, even if I believed what I did was in the best interest of most people (like what happened to Merck + Vioxx).
Re:Sacklers–who made $11B off opioid crisis–to pay $225M in ... by heymijo on Friday October 23, 2020 @12:17AM (#24865992)
Prosecutors have been going after Purdue and the Sackler's for over a decade now. Forty seven states have sued Purdue pharma over the opioid crisis with twenty nine of those states specifically naming members of the Sackler family in the suits. So if you want primary documents, you have more than you can read.

Here's an excerpt from a recent New Yorker article:

The 2007 case was not supposed to end the way it did. For four years, prosecutors in the Western District of Virginia gathered evidence on Purdue, subpoenaing millions of documents. They found a widespread pattern of illegal misconduct in which Purdue systematically misled doctors (and the general public) about the risks associated with OxyContin. In September, 2006, the prosecutors detailed their damning evidence in a hundred-and-twenty-page memo, suggesting that the wrongdoing at Purdue was so pervasive, and so consistent, that it could have been authorized only by the company’s leaders. This memo, an internal government document, was not made public until August, 2019, when the Times published excerpts of it showing that the prosecutors had intended to bring felony charges against three top Purdue executives: Michael Friedman, Howard Udell, and Paul Goldenheim. The full memo, which I have reviewed, describes the Sacklers as “The Family” and notes that the company was owned and controlled by the brothers Mortimer and Raymond Sackler and their heirs. (The heirs of a third Sackler brother, Arthur, sold their interest in the company prior to the introduction of OxyContin.) The company “trained its sales representatives” to use “false and fraudulent” claims about OxyContin, the memo states. The prosecutors noted that the three executives they intended to charge “reported directly to The Family.”

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-sackler-familys...

Re:Sacklers–who made $11B off opioid crisis–to pay $225M in ... by dnautics on Friday October 23, 2020 @12:43PM (#24871338)
Thanks!! The new yorker article is exactly what I was looking for.
Re:Sacklers–who made $11B off opioid crisis–to pay $225M in ... by jimkleiber on Thursday October 22, 2020 @07:05PM (#24864267)
I both think that opioids should be more legalized/available and that if people break the current law, they should face consequences for doing so. If we have a punishment/deterrence-based society, then it seems like the deterrent is not working well for many large corporations. Giving a fine that is a tiny percentage of their money doesn't seem to penalize the behavior much, and more importantly, may not lead to behavioral change. I believe some people need to be held criminally liable and go to prison to stop some of the harmful behaviors.

I think the challenge is that even if someone saves 100 lives, if they kill 1, they face criminal consequences. Maybe coming from the assumption we're supposed to do things to help people, I dunno.

Re:Sacklers–who made $11B off opioid crisis–to pay $225M in ... by doggydogs94 on Thursday October 22, 2020 @09:26PM (#24865186)
Apparently your pain and suffering is less important than getting the Sacklers.
Re:Sacklers–who made $11B off opioid crisis–to pay $225M in ... by dogman144 on Thursday October 22, 2020 @06:40PM (#24864043)
Why aren't you a candidate for legal thc? I'm genuinely interested as it comes up a lot as the new solution for former legitimate opioid users.
Re:Sacklers–who made $11B off opioid crisis–to pay $225M in ... by isbjorn16 on Thursday October 22, 2020 @06:50PM (#24864132)
As someone who uses both (irregularly, only as necessary), legal thc / CBD doesn't even remotely compare. I have to get so high to even approximate the pain relief from an opioid that I'm completely nonfunctional.

I had my first back surgery at 18, my second at 25, and I've been staving off 5 separate herniated discs since. I'm in a good place now (barring literally today), but I can't stress enough how useless you end up being, mentally, to take enough thc/cbd to relieve your pain enough to be functional. Really, I just trade my disfunction of one type for disfunction of another type, which is only acceptable because sometimes you simply can't handle the pain.

OP: I've had a lot of luck finding relief with tramadol. It may not be sufficient for your pain or work for you, but it's a schedule IV instead of a schedule II - my doctor can even call it in. In my experience, doctors don't treat you as a drug seeker if you suggest it - they almost seem relieved that you're not asking for the radioactive stuff. Just throwing it out as a possibility.

For myself, for the rare times each year I need it now, it has been wonderful: most of the opioids were almost putting me into a frenzy - not really the right word since it wasn't as strong as the word frenzy implies, but I would get pretty amped up and anxious. Tramadol offers me relief but I stay fairly even keeled - I can even keep working, for instance, something I can't say I can accomplish when I'm using enough THC/CBD to achieve relief. I wouldn't drive on it or sign a contract, but I'd put it on par with having a couple of beers at lunch.

Re:Sacklers–who made $11B off opioid crisis–to pay $225M in ... by veb on Thursday October 22, 2020 @06:59PM (#24864202)
Just a warning, Tramadol reacts very badly in some people. Like myself, just a single pill will cause me to have tonic-clonic seizures leading up to a grand-mal seizure later on in the day.

Tramadol also has a bunch of shit in it, I feel like it's a 'dirty' drug. For example, it's very closely related to the chemical structures of antidepressants. This can be helpful, but not when you need to stop it. You also can't really take any serotonergic medicine either as you'd be at a very high risk of serotonin syndrome. Nobody wants that.

Honestly, old and true medicines really do work. I'm not saying the Sacklers are awesome, they're fuckin'evil and didn't value human lives - but the drug works for those who need it.

And Cannabis is not legal in New Zealand, at least yet. We'll find out on the 30th if it's going to be...

(I have to be on it after burning my entire left arm, and chest with burning hot oil - I also educate myself on medicines as I used to work in said sector, and I do have seizures and Tramadol is well known to lower the seizure threshold very very fast)

Re:Sacklers–who made $11B off opioid crisis–to pay $225M in ... by isbjorn16 on Thursday October 22, 2020 @07:14PM (#24864347)
I wish I had known about the serotonin part earlier; I destroyed my back today on the dumbest thing and took one so I could get some work done. I wasn't taking an SSRI when I used tramadol more frequently, but I am now, and I probably wouldn't have had I known.

Sigh. I really don't know what to do in these scenarios, it's nothing but bad choices :(

Re:Sacklers–who made $11B off opioid crisis–to pay $225M in ... by veb on Thursday October 22, 2020 @07:30PM (#24864471)
Best thing anyone can do is to familiarise themselves with what they take, and what the key indications are with mixing medication and what happens when you stop. In NZ we have medsafe (https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/), a govt website that lists everything they give out. There's also the The New Zealand Formulary (http://nzformulary.org/)

An example here is that too many doctors believe that Pregabalin has no withdrawals. They're very wrong. Here, they will prescribe it for anything. It works really well too, but there's a lot of hidden bullshit. As an example, they give it to people with epilepsy, but one of the main contradictions is that it can actually cause seizures. So when that started happening for me, they put me on clonazepam (2mg, six times a day).

When I burned myself, I told the hospital I did not want either medicine. There's no point in taking Pregabalin if I have to take so much clonazepam to fix the side effects.

A week later (while still in hospital) I had a panicked pharmacist for the ward visit me and he's like "omg we weren't giving you these two" and I said, "nah mate, it's fine. I feel okay apart from the pain" and he's like, "hang on, you just stopped 12mg of clonazepam a day and you feel fine?" and so I said yes, it's because it simply stopped working and my body has decided it doesn't work on me anymore, which is why I can't take the Pregabalin either... and the stupid thing is the Pregabalin is probably one of the best things I could take right now due to it's amazing nerve pain relief. I'd rather not have seizures though, nor have to find the right kind of benzo to help. I doubt I'd find one that's different enough from the rest to help.

Re:Sacklers–who made $11B off opioid crisis–to pay $225M in ... by Mandatum on Thursday October 22, 2020 @09:03PM (#24865082)
As someone who takes tramadol daily, and has done for about 7 years, I respect that it isn't the best option. But right now I don't have better alternatives. Yes, I've taken breaks for up to a month (without needing to ween, never upped my dosage).

Cannabis doesn't work. Paracetamol/acetaminophen, ibuprofen, NSAID's don't work.

Morphine, codeine and tramadol do. Tramadol is the best of a bad bunch.

Re:Sacklers–who made $11B off opioid crisis–to pay $225M in ... by BaronVonSteuben on Thursday October 22, 2020 @06:42PM (#24864059)
I have used it extensively over the years but it doesn't work all that well for me and comes with really bad side effects (like making me super tired, which makes it really hard to work), making me insatiably hungry, etc. I've tried all kinds of different combos and it's a nice tool for the toolbox, but it's by no means a replacement for me.

I might also add I don't enjoy being high at all. I really prefer to have a clear head, especially during the day while I'm working. I've tried strains that are supposed to be good for that but they don't really work on the pain.

Re:Sacklers–who made $11B off opioid crisis–to pay $225M in ... by ibarea23 on Thursday October 22, 2020 @06:57PM (#24864186)
What condition do you have?
Re:Sacklers–who made $11B off opioid crisis–to pay $225M in ... by BrianOnHN on Thursday October 22, 2020 @06:52PM (#24864150)
You had a "clear head" on opioids?

You've got to be kidding, right?