News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty pro... by tootie on Monday October 19, 2020 @09:39PM (#24833190)
Corporate subsidies work very well in certain conditions. The biggest is in investing in industries have big long-term potential but huge upfront costs. Power generation is a good example. Subsidies also tend to work best with a portfolio like a VC fund.

The other option is for a very mature industries with inelastic demand where subsidies go directly to pushing down prices. Like with food and fuel.

Re:Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty pro... by maxerickson on Monday October 19, 2020 @11:08PM (#24833582)
Isn't Foxconn all short to medium term potential with sort of middle of the road upfront costs?

Their upfront costs are probably nominally higher than average, but state of the art manufacturing moves fast, the up front costs are either paid back quickly or a waste.

The same forces limit the long term potential; if they don't keep up, the investment quickly withers.

Re:Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty pro... by ineedasername on Monday October 19, 2020 @11:21PM (#24833650)
Well, plenty of manufacturing doesn't require state of the art. Start with that level today, and you can still use it a decade from now for products that don't require bleeding edge.

Take chip fab for example: 45nm chips appeared around 2008, and cutting edge today is 5nm. Yet something like an arduino may come in around 200nm, the Pi 4 is still 28nm. So there's a fairly long lifespan for manufacturing facilities. Some will retool for the latest tech sure, but plenty will simply pivot to a different market niche commensurate with their capabilities.

Re:Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty pro... by maxerickson on Monday October 19, 2020 @11:22PM (#24833658)
They said they were going to make a chip fab in Kenosha?
Re:Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty pro... by ineedasername on Tuesday October 20, 2020 @09:00AM (#24836766)
I was using that as an example of manufacturing capabilities that are not worthless as soon as something better comes along. It's a clearer example than more vague references to electronics that aren't as complex or cutting edge as the latest smart phones. That comparison is true as well, but I thought something more concrete would make the point more clearly.
Re:Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty pro... by tootie on Monday October 19, 2020 @11:10PM (#24833598)
Yes. This investment made no sense. The state would have gotten a better deal by just hiring people directly.
Re:Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty pro... by imtringued on Tuesday October 20, 2020 @04:01AM (#24834912)
That's what I'm thinking too. The only way you can salvage this is by canceling the contract with Foxconn and buying the empty buildings at rock bottom prices and grant funding to local startups who are allowed to use the buildings for a low price. At a minimum this would replace the fake jobs with real ones.
Re:Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty pro... by tootie on Tuesday October 20, 2020 @09:50AM (#24837245)
Good luck with that. Startups aren't chasing real estate. Gov Cuomo sunk a load of money trying to build a startup hub in western new york and it didn't work at all.
Re:Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty pro... by sudosysgen on Monday October 19, 2020 @09:50PM (#24833241)
In general, for such industries where corporate subsidies are really really worth it, a well run SoE will do the job with less risk.

For examples in power generation, EDF and HydroQuebec are cases where the government, instead of directly or indirectly subsidizing power generation, decided to just run it themselves, and they both have very clean (80% carbon free for EDF, 99.9% for HydroQuebec), and both make a solid profit while selling the electricty at very low costs (for HydroQuebec, the lowest unsubsidized cost in the world, full stop).

Re:Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty pro... by zdragnar on Monday October 19, 2020 @10:17PM (#24833362)
Hydro is clean in the sense that clean coal is clean. You need to measure and factor in the methane generated by the decaying biome behind the dam.

We also have a lot of electrical cooperatives and other non-mega-corp electrical providers in the US. All in all, it isn't a great analogy.

Re:Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty pro... by gruez on Monday October 19, 2020 @10:23PM (#24833380)
>You need to measure and factor in the methane generated by the decaying biome behind the dam.

how much are we talking about? does it work out to about the same as other fossil fuels, or order(s) of magnitude less? Also, is it possible to mitigate this by burning the vegetation prior to flooding the area?

Re:Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty pro... by zdragnar on Monday October 19, 2020 @11:24PM (#24833663)
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2016/nov/14/h...

About 1.3% of all human caused gas emissions, made worse because it is primarily methane.

As for burning first, that only works for new dams, and you need to de extensive excavation to get at the roots as well- depending on the plant, upwards of half of its mass is below the surface.

Biomass decay isn't the only problem; the article also cites downstream algae blooms, which I suspect would be exacerbated by the occasional dredging necessary to keep dams from being blocked by silt.

A direct comparison to coal is tricky, because a lot depends on the type of coal burned and thr type of plant it burns in. Certainly coal isn't a clean source of energy, but it is clear that hydro isn't either.

Re:Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty pro... by sudosysgen on Tuesday October 20, 2020 @04:08PM (#24841857)
It's important to consider that Methane has a very short atmospheric half life, so that 1.3% becomes 0.06% in a few decades.

Moreso, this can be minimized.

In the end, it's clear that hydro, long term, is indeed clean, moreso than a battery+solar solution would be.

Indeed, this is 1.3% going to 0.06%, despite the fact that hydro represents almost 15% of global electricty generation.

Re:Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty pro... by User23 on Monday October 19, 2020 @10:36PM (#24833444)
Oxidizing the biocarbon to mitigate CO2 release? I think I see a bit of a flaw in that strategy.
Re:Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty pro... by gruez on Monday October 19, 2020 @11:01PM (#24833556)
I don't see why not? We flare natural gas at oil wells for this exact reason.
Re:Foxconn’s empty buildings, empty factories, and empty pro... by ineedasername on Monday October 19, 2020 @11:32PM (#24833693)
Natural gas burns pretty clean by comparison, and if we're taking methane, it's far better to burn it and produce those relatively low C02 amounts than let the methane into the atmosphere as it holds roughly 80 times more heat than C02.

C02 produced by biomass varies with moisture content, but is generally on the level of coal per unit of energy. Moister wood produces slightly more, dry seasoned wood slightly less than coal.