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Re:Baumol Effect by TheOtherHobbes on Saturday October 17, 2020 @05:29PM (#24813540)
This kind of hand-wavey nonsense is exactly why I have no respect for what passes for rational argument in conventional economics.

Let's deconstruct these assumptions:

"Baumol and Bowen pointed out that the same number of musicians is needed to play a Beethoven string quartet today as was needed in the 19th century; the productivity of classical music performance has not increased. On the other hand, the real wages of musicians (as in all other professions) have increased greatly since the 19th century."

1. Yes, string quartets still require four people.

2. This does not mean the "productivity of classical music has not increased", because:

a. String quartets can now make recordings and also play on radio/TV/streaming services, in addition to playing live. This means much larger numbers of people can hear a performance. This translates to ad revenue, streaming income, and sales of recordings. And there is also secondary income of various kinds for various supporting industries, including other forms of media.

b. String quartets can travel much larger distances than they used to be able to, allowing them to play live music over a much wider area than was possible when the fastest mode of transport was a horse. This hugely increases the possible listener base and potential ticket sales.

c. Culturally notable string quartets are likely to play in much larger concert halls than used to be the case, with increased direct ticket income.

d. The classical music industry is far more commercialised. There are numerous festivals and concert series which bring in far more money than they did when owning a pet orchestra was an eccentric hobby for aristocrats.

e. There are far more people than there used to be in the 19th century, and the worldwide classical music audience is much larger than it used to be.

So - this is simply a bad, ignorant example. It's not just wrong, it's flagrantly, wildly, outrageously misinformed, and is based on an almost total lack of insight into an industry that is worth $146 million a year - of which around $90 million is income from streaming.

The other examples are just as ridiculous and trivially incorrect. The productivity of nurses is not defined by the time it takes to change a bandage - ask any ICU nurse - and the productivity of professors is not measured by the time it takes to mark an essay.

How is anyone supposed to take this level of argumentation seriously when there is no evidence the authors made a credible professional effort to understand the economics of their own examples?

And as an advanced exercise for economists - how much has this poor level of economic insight cost the economy?

Re:Baumol Effect by joe_the_user on Saturday October 17, 2020 @06:21PM (#24813874)
Your argument is simply wrong. Or rather, you take one interpretation of the situation and then denigrate in over-the-top terms all the other interpretations.

An orchestra produces a single unique performance. The productivity of the system of producing single, unique performance has no changed.

You're saying that this single unique performance can be reproduced - sure, that's true but now it's a different product. And certainly, that can increase the price of the final product. A programmer produces programs. Those programs are eventually reproduced on computers on a small or a large scale. A programmer producing a program used by few people still must be paid a salary similar to a programmer producing a program used across the globe - the cost of the program itself has to make up for this, if it doesn't, the programming isn't going to happen.

Moreover, the orchestra example is ... just an example. There are quite a lot of other fields requiring skilled workers, where the productivity has stayed fairly steady.

Re:Baumol Effect by asdasdasdas5453 on Saturday October 17, 2020 @05:36PM (#24813577)
"The phenomenon was described by William J. Baumol and William G. Bowen in the 1960s."

I imagine streaming services were not a thing back then.

Also you make fair points in your comments but you confuse the example for the argument. Replace 'String Quartet' by 'waiter' or 'child minder' if you prefer.

Re:Baumol Effect by ptsneves on Saturday October 17, 2020 @06:05PM (#24813772)
I think the issue is that you measure productivity as in quantitative physical output instead of in value as driven by supply and demand. Absolute value increases due to inflation even though the supply/demand ratio is the same.
Re:Baumol Effect by JumpCrisscross on Saturday October 17, 2020 @11:22PM (#24815295)
> Absolute value increases due to inflation

For a meaningless definition of absolute, where it coïncides with “nominal,” yes.

Re:Baumol Effect by jldugger on Saturday October 17, 2020 @11:38PM (#24815362)
Well, there was a fairly huge streaming service called FM Radio that had a huge audience at the time.
Re:Baumol Effect by Kednicma on Saturday October 17, 2020 @06:17PM (#24813852)
Do your analysis per-capita, please; as a former gigging musician, I assure you that it doesn't matter how much money is being given to the Big Four by streaming services, it only matters how many gigging hours there are per week. And the number of gigging hours per week is limited, and the amount of music produced per gigging hour has not changed in centuries.

This is a bad, ignorant example. Not just wrong, but flagrantly, wildly, outrageously misinformed.

Re:Baumol Effect by teorema on Saturday October 17, 2020 @06:07PM (#24813783)
I had a similar reaction re: professors.

Sure, it takes the same amount of time to mark an essay. But it takes much less time to score exams and to administer them.

Writing research papers takes much, much, much less time because of word processors, online submission systems, copyediting changes, and so forth. A lot of research itself takes less time to do because of statistical analysis libraries, computerized administration and recruitment, etc etc etc

This is actually something I've heard older, very professors lament -- some of them have claimed that when, say, papers took longer to produce, you had more time to think when things were being mailed back and forth, and there wasn't so much of a factory approach to paper writing where they were treated as widgets. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with this necessarily but I'm really skeptical of claims that productivity hasn't risen in certain fields.

Now you can get into a discussion of "real" versus "false" productivity gains but that's a little different.

Re:Baumol Effect by krallja on Saturday October 17, 2020 @10:19PM (#24815066)
Another example - reference managers are a very specialized piece of word processing software that means researchers no longer have to renumber footnotes when editing their papers. If you make a derivative work, like if you give a talk on the paper, you can cut down the paper and the reference manager will automatically give you a bibliography slide for your presentation, with only the relevant citations included.
Re:Baumol Effect by lordnacho on Sunday October 18, 2020 @06:58AM (#24816940)
This is pretty much what I wanted to write. How come productivity is measured in dollars when exchanging goods/services, but constant units when this Baumol thing comes up?

The simplest way to resolve the paradox is that you have a society that becomes more productive over time, and that everyone shares in the increased productivity due to the negotiation process. If you can fish and I can cook, and you discover how to 10x your fishing output while I sit on the beach, you are still going to give me more than whatever amount of fish I got before.

The other thing about Baumol - not his fault - is you often see it quoted as a sort of club to beat people with if you don't like how they make their money. And the fact that it's an economist gives it a respectability that makes people hesitate before asking more.

Re:Baumol Effect by asdasdasdas5453 on Sunday October 18, 2020 @08:19AM (#24817283)
" This is pretty much what I wanted to write. How come productivity is measured in dollars when exchanging goods/services, but constant units when this Baumol thing comes up?"

From an economist perspective there is no difference between the two. Money is just a convenient metric to be able to compare the value of multiple goods.

You don't think of you salary as the power to buy X burgers or Y beers but really it is what it is. It is just easier to say I earn XXXX$.

Re:Baumol Effect by lordnacho on Sunday October 18, 2020 @10:40AM (#24818165)
The difference is the price, no?

If I get paid 100 for playing a concert on one day, but 120 another day, did I get more productive? Either way I produced the same number of concerts, but got 20% more payment.

Measured in concerts my productivity was the same. Measured in other goods it went up.

Re:Baumol Effect by srtjstjsj on Sunday October 18, 2020 @09:17AM (#24817666)
Thanks for explaining. I'm looking forward to your Nobel Prize for disproving established economic theory.
Re:Baumol Effect by TillE on Sunday October 18, 2020 @11:36AM (#24818606)
I wasn't aware that anyone takes "established economic theory" particularly seriously. The entire field is about as objectively useful as philosophy, pompous awards or no.