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Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by EpicEng on Friday October 16, 2020 @01:01PM (#24802720)
>this big co strategy of "mine. I profit now. everyone who built up this useful thing can suck eggs" really sucks and sucks for the humans and sucks for Open Source.

Then use a different license. Hoping that a company like Amazon finds it in their hearts to always do what _you_ consider "the right thing" is just a loser of a strategy. You seem to want all of the good of open source, with none of the downsides. Good luck with that.

Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by unethical_ban on Friday October 16, 2020 @01:27PM (#24802988)
"Don't like how shitty people can be? I don't care" - that is how this kind of comment reads. But let's move on.

Interesting idea for a license.

Everyone can use and modify it, but if a large company with a market cap above $100m or a company wholly funded or owned by such company decides to utilize this project as a for-profit service, then said large company must hire me at for no less than $175,000 in 2020 value.

Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by EpicEng on Friday October 16, 2020 @03:00PM (#24803906)
>"Don't like how shitty people can be? I don't care" - that is how this kind of comment reads. But let's move on.

No, I think I'll respond to that. It's not that I don't _care_, but it's naive at best to expect anything else. Besides, if your license allows it, they're not really taking advantage are they? Change your license.

>Everyone can use and modify it, but if a large company with a market cap above $100m or a company wholly funded or owned by such company decides to utilize this project as a for-profit service, then said large company must hire me at for no less than $175,000 in 2020 value.

Seems incredibly difficult to implement logistically, and most companies will probably just say "screw it" as they all hope to be valued at > 100M some day. Just enforce a per-basis license negotiation for commercial use or disallow it entirely. What happens if a company goes from a cap of 99M -> 101M -> 98M (etc etc). Just seems wrought with obvious problems.

Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by elwell on Friday October 16, 2020 @01:34PM (#24803045)
> or a company wholly funded or owned by such company

^^ Written as if you've been burnt before...

Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by tick_tock_tick on Friday October 16, 2020 @02:09PM (#24803400)
wholly funded nah we get $1 from Joe down the street he also owns it technically...
Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by garrettgrimsley on Friday October 16, 2020 @02:15PM (#24803451)
It would include that so that the BigCo couldn’t create a shell company or subsidiary to own the product and skirt the $100MM language
Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by kortilla on Friday October 16, 2020 @02:50PM (#24803809)
Why do you think it’s shitty for Amazon to use an open source project this way? Do the licenses really mean nothing and the unwritten expectation is that the author of open source software should get rich if a someone else successfully productizes it?
Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by pbhjpbhj on Friday October 16, 2020 @02:00PM (#24803328)
Like CC-BY-NC (Creative Combine, Attribution, Non-commercial). If you want to use the work commercially (ie for business purposes, commercial doesn't require selling) then you must negotiate licensing terms (or infringe copyright [Fair Use / Fair Dealing aside].
Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by greensoap on Friday October 16, 2020 @02:25PM (#24803554)
Please don't encourage or suggest the use of CC anything for code. It just wasn't designed for code and creates huge ambiguities on the rights you intended.

https://creativecommons.org/faq/#Can_I_use_a_Creative_Common...

As stated on the Creative Commons website (licensed under CC-BY):

Can I apply a Creative Commons license to software? We recommend against using Creative Commons licenses for software. Instead, we strongly encourage you to use one of the very good software licenses which are already available. We recommend considering licenses listed as free by the Free Software Foundation and listed as “open source” by the Open Source Initiative.

Unlike software-specific licenses, CC licenses do not contain specific terms about the distribution of source code, which is often important to ensuring the free reuse and modifiability of software. Many software licenses also address patent rights, which are important to software but may not be applicable to other copyrightable works. Additionally, our licenses are currently not compatible with the major software licenses, so it would be difficult to integrate CC-licensed work with other free software. Existing software licenses were designed specifically for use with software and offer a similar set of rights to the Creative Commons licenses.

Version 4.0 of CC’s Attribution-ShareAlike (BY-SA) license is one-way compatible with the GNU General Public License version 3.0 (GPLv3). This compatibility mechanism is designed for situations in which content is integrated into software code in a way that makes it difficult or impossible to distinguish the two. There are special considerations required before using this compatibility mechanism. Read more about it here.

Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by dooglius on Friday October 16, 2020 @02:37PM (#24803692)
It says

>Instead, we strongly encourage you to use one of the very good software licenses which are already available

But as far as I am aware, there are no comparable software licenses that prohibit commercial use. So, the CC NC licenses seem to be the only option here, even if supposedly imperfect.

Do you have an example of an ambiguity with regard to non-commercial use?

Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by greensoap on Friday October 16, 2020 @03:06PM (#24803960)
Heather Meeker, a great legal mind in the open source world, helped create this license: https://commonsclause.com/

You might consider whether it serves your intended goals.

Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by no_wizard on Friday October 16, 2020 @03:16PM (#24804039)
isn't this what redis did when they created their new license?

In effect, if you sell redis as a service (which, and IANAL, as I understand doesn't mean you sell a service supported by using redis) you must pay them in some way.

Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by Navarr on Friday October 16, 2020 @02:28PM (#24803592)
The "Fuck you, pay me" license.

FYPML.

Figuring out the right terms would be difficult, but not impossible.

Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by pydry on Friday October 16, 2020 @02:34PM (#24803659)
I really wish a license like this existed, especially for libraries.
Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by funkaster on Friday October 16, 2020 @01:31PM (#24803016)
This is what people don't get when arguing against GPL: "oh, it's such a restrictive license! so viral, blah blah blah". In this case, it would've probable not changed the outcome, but could give the author some leverage for either compensation or mention. IANAL, but my understanding is that GPL would require you to keep the same terms and mention explicitly the original source.
Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by darkengine on Friday October 16, 2020 @01:55PM (#24803270)
To my understanding, the GPL does not require acknowledging the original author's contributions any more publicly than the Apache license (used by the project). The Apache license already requires preserving the copyright notice, which AWS did. I think the issue is the author wanted a more public acknowledgement of his work, which is a very fair ask. As far as I know, no license requires this (and, I believe such a license would be GPL-incompatible).

In my view, no license can enforce being a good citizen of the open source community. In the embedded space, I've seen vendors bound by the GPL follow it in letter but not in spirit (ie, delivering unusable code with a ridiculous toolchain), or just straight up ignore it (what are we going to do, sue?). On the flipside, good citizen vendors frequently contribute upstream even when they don't have to.

Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by lutorm on Friday October 16, 2020 @02:12PM (#24803422)
My understanding is that GPL doesn't force the user to do _anything_ except license any derived work under GPL. It specifically doesn't put _any_ limits on what someone can do with that code precisely because doing so would limit your freedom (with the exception of the licensing issue which is required so as to not deprive _other_ people of the freedom to do what they want with the code.)

It specifically does not require you to pay homage to the original author. The point is to ensure that the code remains free, the original author has no say over what happens to it.

Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by foolmeonce on Friday October 16, 2020 @03:07PM (#24803969)
That's true, but wanting acknowledgement in some specific way is pretty frivolous compared to wanting changes made to be available under the same license so the fork doesn't maintain an incompatibility/add-on advantage that can't be fixed.

Whether the GPL is good enough for that depends on whether end users are recipients of binaries and therefore would be entitled to the source under GPL.

Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by pvorb on Friday October 16, 2020 @02:18PM (#24803486)
> On the flipside, good citizen vendors frequently contribute upstream even when they don't have to.

I once discussed that with my employer and they agreed: it's almost never a good idea to fork a product in order to fix bugs, since you will have to continouiusly maintain the fork. If you get the fix upstream, you'll get the maintenance for free. So this often is not out of generosity, but rather in their own interests.

Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by toyg on Friday October 16, 2020 @02:28PM (#24803589)
BSD and MIT licenses can be used with the advertising clause, and you can add anything you want. Similarly, you can add clauses to the GPL if you want.

Licenses are contracts. You can add to the contract that people who fork must do star-jumps every morning, if you feel like; but you have to state it upfront.

Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by semi-extrinsic on Friday October 16, 2020 @02:16PM (#24803462)
AFAIK, the related question of whether an OSS license for a scientific software can require that people using the software cite the paper(s) describing the software, has been answered in the negative. You can ask nicely, but you cannot demand it under any of the existing OSS licenses.
Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by heavyset_go on Friday October 16, 2020 @01:59PM (#24803320)
AGPL would also force Amazon to open-source their changes to services that they release that use AGPL code.
Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by suyash on Friday October 16, 2020 @01:49PM (#24803195)
I would bet AWS wouldn’t even touch it if it was under GPL, most companies have made it forbidden to use because of reasons you stated.
Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by toyg on Friday October 16, 2020 @02:30PM (#24803610)
And would that be a bad thing? If the tool is good, FOSS users will get a competitive advantage over AWS.
Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by munk-a on Friday October 16, 2020 @02:40PM (#24803721)
I had several discussions with fellow students in Uni about GPL vs. BSD licensing and BSD licensed code is, IMO, more free and more accessible - it really depends on what you want out of your code. Is your goal to provide a useful tool as a one-off that anyone can pick up and use? Then BSD is for you - otherwise, if you have expectations around self-maintenance of the code by consumers then you want to lean more toward GPL. The thing you get out of GPL that you lack with BSD is the ability to pull back changes and bug fixes from users - usually by explicitly excluding those parties which for legal/whatever reasons aren't comfortable re-sharing bug fixes.
Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by arminiusreturns on Friday October 16, 2020 @04:35PM (#24804773)
GPL is about freedom for the user, BSD/MIT is about freedom for the devs. Not all users are devs, but all devs are users. GPL is the better license for net freedom.

It baffles me how many people fail to understand this.

Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by dragonwriter on Friday October 16, 2020 @05:02PM (#24805032)
> GPL is about freedom for the user, BSD/MIT is about freedom for the devs.

Both are about freedom that is only directly meaningful for developers or people that can employ developers on their behalf; permissive license are about simply providing that freedom rather directly, with limitations that tend to be focussed mainly on avoiding unexpected costs to the original provider of the software (liability, reputational, or otherwise). Copyleft licenses compromise direct provision of freedom to acheive broader but less direct social goals which relate to that freedom.

If you both agree with the goal and agree with the pragmatic judgement involved in the design of the detailed mechanics in a particular license about how to acheived that goal, its quite possible that a copyleft license is better for your interest.

Personally, whether the goal is (and these are two very different goals I've seen cited by GPL proponents) promoting development of free software or inhibiting development of nonfree software, I'm not sure the GPL family (or any other copyleft license) does that better, in practice, than permissive licenses.

The GPL is better at inhibiting nonfree direct descendants of a particular code base, but I don't generally see that as a valuable goal.

Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by suyash on Friday October 16, 2020 @04:46PM (#24804880)
"GPL is about freedom for the user" - define what do you mean by freedom, it's different for different people.

GPL is the better license for net freedom. - it's not, because of it's virality, it pollutes other code and then demands everything fall into it's license, which is ethically wrong.

Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by heavyset_go on Friday October 16, 2020 @04:49PM (#24804926)
> GPL is the better license for net freedom. - it's not, because of it's virality, it pollutes other code and then demands everything fall into it's license, which is ethically wrong.

Nobody has a gun held to their head and are forced to use GPL code in their code.

Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by toyg on Friday October 16, 2020 @03:37PM (#24804239)
Of course it’s more free - corporations are free to take your code and do as they please, as we’ve just seen.
Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by timonovici on Friday October 16, 2020 @04:02PM (#24804484)
Don't they already use MySQL for example? I don't think it would stop them in any way, unless some lawyers had some really antiquated views, coming straight from the 90's
Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by suyash on Friday October 16, 2020 @04:41PM (#24804833)
MySQL has dual license and one of them if friendly to companies who can pay the fees.
Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by graton on Friday October 16, 2020 @02:32PM (#24803640)
FYI: Linux is licensed under GPL v2. AWS uses Linux extensively.
Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by munk-a on Friday October 16, 2020 @02:45PM (#24803767)
Amazon has a legion of lawyers and probably quite a few technically apt ones that are actually comfortable diving into questions around whether a chef/ansible/whatever script to provision a linux box will go against GPL - and additionally whether pre-baked containers qualify or if a service to dynamically build pre-baked containers would qualify...

These are, honestly, expensive questions to answer as the tech gets more complicated - at what point is linux part of the binary you're distributing vs. an external dependency and, if you get the answers wrong, you'll potentially create an outage that will wreck havoc on the economy by grinding the cloud to a halt and cost Amazon tens of billions in revenue.

This is a very, very, complicated situation.

Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by archgoon on Friday October 16, 2020 @03:39PM (#24804249)
suyash is basically correct; usage of GPL (any version) licensed software is very heavily scrutinized at Amazon. Explicit exceptions need to be filed for, and are rarely granted. Unless you can make a very strong business case for the software, you're not going to get it approved.
Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by cycloptic on Friday October 16, 2020 @01:51PM (#24803209)
>Hoping that a company like Amazon finds it in their hearts to always do what _you_ consider "the right thing" is just a loser of a strategy.

Sure the author can't require payment after the fact, but there are no open source licenses that prevent the author from soliciting payment from a downstream user. This is all fair game.

>You seem to want all of the good of open source, with none of the downsides.

If you do it right there aren't downsides. As far as business is concerned, the point with choosing any license is to create a win-win situation for all parties involved.

Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by divbzero on Friday October 16, 2020 @02:14PM (#24803436)
Which alternative license(s) would you recommend?
Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by munk-a on Friday October 16, 2020 @02:36PM (#24803679)
I think it should be possible to modify the GPL3 to disallow any usage in a for-profit setting - then you could individually re-license the code for different users to privately consume (and, optionally, free them from the burdens of the GPL3's copy-left infection). There'd be some issues, any commits you pulled in from the community wouldn't be eligible for re-licensing unless your PR acceptance flow included securing re-licencing rights from them - standard GPL3 copy-left code can't be converted to a private license without the agreement of the original authors.
Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by purpleidea on Friday October 16, 2020 @02:46PM (#24803777)
> I think it should be possible to modify the GPL3 to disallow any usage in a for-profit setting

That's not how GPLv3 works. Both in terms of selling [1] and in terms of additional permissions under section 7.

GPLv3 without a CLA essentially requires you make the modified code available, but not when it's behind a cloud/webservice. For that you need AGPLv3.

[1] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.en.html

Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by munk-a on Friday October 16, 2020 @02:58PM (#24803892)
To clarify - that's why I specifically mentioned a modification, the CC-Attribution-Non-commerical license accomplished this in a non-software setting so I assume a sufficiently practiced lawyer could make the modifications to the GPL3 to specifically disallow usage in commercial settings - this would, after the modification, not be GPL3 anymore of course.

This does go against some philosophical decisions underlying the GPL license but IMO GPL itself is less free than BSD/MIT licensing and to each their own.

Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by Ar-Curunir on Friday October 16, 2020 @01:13PM (#24802857)
How would using GPL help here? Having the source code doesn't mean you have access to hardware like Amazon
Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by backtoyoujim on Friday October 16, 2020 @01:24PM (#24802965)
This reads like big co marketspeak of "go suck eggs twice"
Re:AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service by EpicEng on Friday October 16, 2020 @03:03PM (#24803931)
More along the lines of "I live in the real world". I can be empathetic to the situation and think the author essentially set themselves up for something like this all at the same time.