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Re:Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing... by smallstepforman on Thursday October 15, 2020 @06:38PM (#24795076)
There are many reasons why I dont believe in self driving cars, the first (and strongest) is to imagine that the software was written by my collegues (and myself).
Re:Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing... by JKCalhoun on Thursday October 15, 2020 @06:48PM (#24795206)
I sort of find the idea of self-driving cars as ... selfish?

Don't want to drive, take the bus.

The idea that we all need our personal chariots (and now robotic chauffeurs) seems to me to be the height of irresponsibility.

And, yes, I am guilty of owning a car myself and feel guilt about it. But for some reason the self-driving bit just seems to take it to another level for me. Maybe too there's an air of elitism about it since we are in fact talking about cars that cost what most people make in an entire year.

Re:Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing... by dheera on Thursday October 15, 2020 @07:03PM (#24795373)
Self-driving cars is not just about not wanting to drive.

It's also about enabling Uber-style intelligent carpooling so that you can save energy while still maintaining similar times to driving, especially in places with poor or non-existent public transportation.

It's also about reducing the number of cars in the world. You probably use your car for less than 5% of your life. Most of the time it just sits there taking up space. Why do you need to own it? Imagine a world where you didn't need to own, maintain, or park. We can reclaim parking lots and plant trees, build housing, or other things. We can also reclaim a lot of our time spent in traffic jams or looking for parking and do something more useful with it.

It's also about enabling people who are unfit to drive to have a better quality of life. What if you've had a little to drink? What if you're down with a fever and a headache and can't concentrate on the road? What if you're sleepy? What if you are prone to seizures? What if you're blind, deaf, have poor motor skills? What if you're a visitor to an area without a public transportation system and not confident renting a car and driving?

Re:Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing... by InitialLastName on Thursday October 15, 2020 @10:38PM (#24796873)
Nothing I've seen of Elon Musk's behavior (boring tunnels meant primarily for cars in pods, anyone?) suggests that he wants fewer cars on earth. In fact, it would be a pretty bonkers philosophy with which to run the most valuable car company on earth.

To add, back in the old days when I still went into the heart of my local metropolis, Uber and Lyft style carpooling had the opposite effect of "reducing the number of cars". The streets are littered with pee bottles and packed with desperate drivers looking to score a quick buck, making u-turns across traffic while looking at their phones.

Re:Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing... by mamon on Friday October 16, 2020 @06:14AM (#24799334)
>> Why do you need to own it?

Because our primitive brains instinctively want to own things. We can share with family, and with good friends, but not with strangers.

Another thing: car is used not only to drive, but also as a storage space for things that you want to have always with you: a bottle of water, duffel bag with gym clothes, umbrella, etc. With rented car pools you'd have to carry all that with you.

Also, society where no one owns a car or an apartment, where everything is rented, "pooled", would be a totalitarian dystopia - try to misbehave, post a negative comment about government on Facebook and you're banned from a car sharing service as a punishment. Seizing your property is of course also possible, but much harder.

Re:Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing... by dheera on Friday October 16, 2020 @03:25PM (#24804106)
But what if not owning a car meant you saved an additional $400 per month, and reclaimed 1-1.5 more hours per day?

Personally, I think a lot of people would take that trade. I would.

Yes, there are people who like lugging everything but the kitchen sink with them around. For a lot of people in the world though "things you always want to have with you" fits in a handbag or backpack.

Re:Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing... by jpindar on Friday October 16, 2020 @02:22PM (#24803523)
And of course the cars would track everywhere you go, supposedly just to choose which ads to show to their captive audience.
Re:Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing... by 542354234235 on Friday October 16, 2020 @09:47AM (#24800777)
> I sort of find the idea of self-driving cars as ... selfish? >Don't want to drive, take the bus.

A big issue with public transport is the “first/last mile” problem. You want to take the light rail to commute 25 miles to work but the station is two miles away from your house and the closest station to your work is over a mile. “Just walk” does not work for everyone, either because of weather (getting soaked by rain or sweating too much in your work clothes), or physical abilities, or time. So are you looking to take the bus to the station and from the station to work? How much time does that add? Do the schedules even line up well? If you buy a bike, is it allowed on the light rail, is there a safe place at your work for it? Do you drive a car and leave it at the station, and what do you do on the other side to get to the office?

Autonomous vehicles can/should be used in conjunction with public transport to solve the first/last mile problem. Hail a small electric autonomous car to take you to the light rail station, and hop into another one at the other end that takes you directly to work. It is still convenient for the individual and it still eliminates 23 miles of vehicle driving in a dense urban environment and removes the need for a parking space in a location that space is likely a premium.

Same with busses. They take forever because they have to stop so often. They have to stop so often because people can’t walk long distances to a more central location for pickup. People in the lowest incomes that, out of necessity, have to use the bus system may commute for multiple hours simply because of these inefficiencies. But if you had small 10 person shuttles servicing a limited area to bring local people to and from their front door to a more central bus location, you could reduce the number of stops a bus makes over a commuter distance by an order of magnitude and turn a 2 hour commute into a 40 minute commute.

Re:Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing... by dragonwriter on Thursday October 15, 2020 @07:12PM (#24795442)
> Don't want to drive, take the bus.

Self-driving “cars” include taxis (that's one of the prime motivating use cases), trucks (another big one), and busses (not as frequently talked about, but once the technology is there, it's going to get applied to them, as well.)

It's not just about individually-owned vehicles for people who want to own, but not drive, a personal vehicle.

Re:Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing... by JKCalhoun on Friday October 16, 2020 @03:07PM (#24803967)
I feel taxi drivers, truck drivers, deserve jobs.

It seems to be popular to want to automate all the "working class" jobs though.

Re:Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing... by kirillzubovsky on Friday October 16, 2020 @04:29AM (#24798807)
Speaking in terms of pure economics, improvements to self-driving cars today will eventually lead to mass-market adoption and substantially lower costs for everybody.

Take cell phones for example, they were big, expensive, had only one function, and only available for the rich just about 30 years ago. Now they are cheap, powerful, pocket supercomputers available to mostly everyone.

Another example is farming and supply chain. 100 years ago you were pretty limited to the foods available in the local store, but now you can get anything your heart might desire, be that bananas from Mexico for 69 cents, or Sake from Japan for $20. The world has greatly benefitted from advancements in technology that was once only available to the richest.

Most of the mid-class luxuries we enjoy today, from airlines, to hot tubs, to game consoles and books on Kindle, all of that had to be developed and brought to light, first expensive, and then gradually cheaper and cheaper.

Eventually even the buses will drive themselves, and that will only happen if we invest sufficient energy and resources into making the tech available and improving today.

Re:Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing... by noodlesoups on Friday October 16, 2020 @05:09AM (#24799007)
>I sort of find the idea of self-driving cars as ... selfish?

Well we are selfish creatures. It makes perfect sense, what is the purpose of anything if not for you?

I don't think we'll be satisfied by nothing less than everything, and why should we?

Re:Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing... by gruez on Thursday October 15, 2020 @06:50PM (#24795222)
But what if self-driving cars were 10x safer than human-driven cars? Seems like your issue is with the personal vehicle bit, not the self driving bit.

>Don't want to drive, take the bus.

And what if my area has shitty bus service?

Re:Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing... by heavyset_go on Friday October 16, 2020 @01:17AM (#24797722)
> But what if self-driving cars were 10x safer than human-driven cars?

But there is no evidence of this, or that they're even as safe as human drivers. In fact, Teslas are involved in more accidents than other luxury cars.

Re:Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing... by InitialLastName on Thursday October 15, 2020 @10:40PM (#24796886)
Make it better? Move to a better area?

I strongly advise that anyone who pays attention to national politics diversify at least 50% of that energy into local issues.

Re:Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing... by noodlesoups on Friday October 16, 2020 @05:12AM (#24799019)
Moving has a lot of inertia, and might not be possible if nobody is interesting in buying your house, or other area's rent is too high. Your area might have _had_ great service, but has rapidly degraded. There are tons of things outside your control. Having a car is the common answer to gain back some of that.
Re:Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing... by InitialLastName on Friday October 16, 2020 @10:02AM (#24800892)
You'll notice I had a solution ahead of moving.
Re:Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing... by tshaddox on Thursday October 15, 2020 @10:30PM (#24796821)
There are lots of systems which support life and run software which, if it fails, will cause death. Literal life-support systems are one obvious example, but there are many many more. All of that software is written by your colleagues.
Re:Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing... by arminiusreturns on Thursday October 15, 2020 @10:02PM (#24796652)
Having been in the industry, you have no idea.

I never rode in our vehicles... for a reason.

Re:Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing... by colinmhayes on Thursday October 15, 2020 @06:45PM (#24795162)
I mean in that case imagine these people being allowed to drive. There's no reason computers can't be better than people, and many reasons they could be better.
Re:Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing... by falcolas on Thursday October 15, 2020 @07:03PM (#24795369)
> There's no reason computers can't be better than people

It is entirely possible, however, that the computers and software systems available today can't be better than humans.

Re:Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing... by ggreer on Thursday October 15, 2020 @11:17PM (#24797084)
There are advantages and disadvantages to each. The computer failure methods are new to us, but we're all too familiar with human failings. Humans have much slower reaction times. Humans get sleepy, drunk, or distracted. Humans sometimes get angry or impatient and do dangerous things with their vehicles.

The important metric is accidents per mile driven. Right now, Teslas on autopilot seem to be significantly safer than human drivers. From Tesla's vehicle safety report[1]:

> ...we registered one accident for every 4.53 million miles driven in which drivers had Autopilot engaged. For those driving without Autopilot but with our active safety features, we registered one accident for every 2.27 million miles driven. For those driving without Autopilot and without our active safety features, we registered one accident for every 1.56 million miles driven. By comparison, NHTSA’s most recent data shows that in the United States there is an automobile crash every 479,000 miles.

Yes autopilot has issues and limitations, but it's already 3x safer than unaided drivers. Also, it seems to be improving in safety. Two years ago, autopilot's crash rate was only 1.5x lower than unaided Tesla drivers.

1. https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport

Re:Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing... by Ekaros on Friday October 16, 2020 @03:02AM (#24798306)
Now are those metrics comparable? Are they normalized for conditions and location? That is situations where autopilot disengages and driver does not take action counted in?

Weather, type of road and so on has huge effect on number of accidents. Unless those are taken in consideration it's only lies...

Re:Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing... by falcolas on Friday October 16, 2020 @11:25AM (#24801728)
I'm going to say that these are not normalized. It's fairly well known (and NHTSA data backs it up) that the accident rate for the types of vehicle Tesla builds (luxury 4/5 door sedans) accounts for a fraction of total vehicle accidents.

A portion of this is a result of the ability for young adults to purchases $30-40,000 cars: 16-19 yo drivers make up around 2/5 of the total accidents in the US.

https://aaafoundation.org/rates-motor-vehicle-crashes-injuri...

Additionally, 4 door sedans in general (which describes most Tesla models) are only involved in approximately 27% of all accidents. The Model X, a compact SUV, only accounts for about 13% of all accidents.

https://cdan.nhtsa.gov/tsftables/tsfar.htm# (look at table 37)

But it doesn't make for nearly as good of a press release.

Re:Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing... by pskinner on Thursday October 15, 2020 @06:48PM (#24795202)
Being able to drive safely is not the same skill as being able to construct a system that can drive safely.
Re:Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing... by throwaway2048 on Thursday October 15, 2020 @06:46PM (#24795184)
Not sure what being able to program has to do with being able to drive.