This is a false statement that you continue to repeat.
Just as you did then, you continue to ignore the even more egregious practice of not only tracking everything you install but tying it to your identity.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24585353
Due to people downvoting my comments to the point that I cannot reply, I will explain why askafriend is wrong right here (though I already explained why they are wrong in my GP post, which they also ignored in their response to that post). Disabling Apple Maps from getting your location does not stop Apple from getting your location. When any app gets your location on iOS, Apple also gets your location. This is explained clearly in the link contained in this comment, which askafriend ignored. Both Amazon and Google allow you to get your location without telling anybody.
But that’s the least of it:
The text you quote in you your linked comment nowhere states that your location is sent to Apple every time it is requested.
That’s not a quibble. It’s much more serious
You wrote comment so you must know that what you just linked doesn’t support your actual claim, so it creates the impression you are doing this to be intentionally misleading.
That's a really wacky contortion. Whose location is it then?
> nowhere states that your location is sent to Apple every time it is requested.
You're right. It's worse than that. I pointed out in that post that Apple periodically gets your location even if no app requests it. Apple also says that you consent to having your location collected every time another app requests it, so even if it is not true now (which you have not been able to show and which would mean they wouldn't need such a scary consent, so I highly doubt it), it can be true tomorrow.
The actually privacy-respecting Android devices from Amazon and Google do not suffer from this issue. Nor do they require you to tell anybody if you install an app on your device, tied to your identity, which you have once again ignored.
2. “so even if it is not true now”
This is you admitting that you actually don’t know that they are doing what you said they were doing.
You actually have no idea what Apple is collecting. You are just speculating based on a legal disclaimer about what they could be doing.
3. “it can be true tomorrow.”
Again you admit that you know that it may not be true.
Asserting something to be true, when you know that you really don’t know whether it is true, is called lying.
You lied when you made the claim earlier in the thread, and you doubled down on that lie by asserting that it was not false, when you were challenged about the truth of your statement.
That is not the data that is stored. You are deliberately lying because you yourself said that an encrypted identifier is stored with the data. As I already proved to you earlier, that encrypted identifier can be deanonymized by Apple.
> This is you admitting that you actually don’t know that they are doing what you said they were doing.
I showed that they were doing worse than what I had originally claimed, and you ignored that.
> You lied
You're the one who lied in my previous comment. Go see what it says. You can't even argue semantics like you're doing here.
Remember, the whole point is that on Google and Amazon allow you to turn off this data collection entirely, which is significantly better for privacy, and you have not been able to argue otherwise. Worse, you continue to ignore the app data tied to your identity. You are arguing for a bad actor, which makes you look absolutely silly, like somebody who was duped into overpaying for a worse device who feels the need to justify their foolishness to the world.
By the way, here's proof that they're not just making you consent to that scary privacy disclaimer for shits and giggles as you hoped against hope that they did: https://www.wired.com/2011/04/apple-iphone-tracking/
Go into Settings -> Privacy -> Location Services -> Maps and toggle the setting to "Never".
The full set of options are:
* Never
* Ask Next Time
* While Using the App
* While Using the App or Widgets
and there is also a toggle to turn off Precise Location so that apps only get approximate location.
Go nuts with the options.
I just tried it and I can use the Maps app just fine with location services set to "Never".
Picking some narrow definition that fits your point isn't going to convince anyone of your grand statement. It just comes off as disingenuous.
They periodically send the location of nearby cell-towers and wifi hotspots (all public information) back to a crowdsourced database. _Your_ identity isn't associated with any of it. Apple doesn't know who you are or where your phone is. They do not store GPS coordinates. A single cell tower is nowhere near accurate enough to determine the location of the phone, etc etc.
Google/Android do this too: https://qz.com/1131515/google-collects-android-users-locatio...
You can also entirely disable location services if you're uncomfortable with this and that'd stop it.
You're weaponizing people's ignorance and the complexity of the technical details.
With your GPS location. That's how they figure out the location of those devices.
> _Your_ identity isn't associated with any of it.
As I showed in the link you continue to ignore, an easily deanonymized identifier is associated with that data in order to prevent people from sending junk data.
> Google/Android do this too:
The whole point is that on Android, you can opt out. Android respects users privacy enough to even ask them if they want to opt out on initial setup.
> You can also entirely disable location services if you're uncomfortable with this and that'd stop it.
As I explained in the link, disabling location services means you can't get your location at all. Not so with Android.
> You're weaponizing people's ignorance and the complexity of the technical details.
I'm fixing your and zepto's ignorance in order to protect people's privacy against bad actors like Apple.
The principle of Privacy isn't the act of giving people options (Facebook uses this excuse all the time - "but users had the option! not our fault!").
The principle is designing privacy into the default way people use things. At an ecosystem level the privacy awareness level and incentive structure is clear between the big companies.
Nitpicking and hyperbole isn't helping make your point like you think it is. Do you think my mom knows how to opt out of something like that on Android or if that's even possible? No. But she's IS going to be using Apple Maps by default and have a heightened level of privacy all the same.
Privacy is taking care of your entire customer base and making intelligent default considerations. Not giving nerds a pane of options.
And Android puts it right there in device setup, allowing them tonset up their privacy preferences correctly the way people use things.
> Do you think my mom knows how to opt out of something like that on Android or if that's even possible?
If she uses Android, she would. It asks her right there in setup. Do you think your mom knows that Apple tracks every location she has ever been, and she can't make them stop? Even you don't know it, and you're arguably tech literate.
The correct way to handle privacy is giving users the choice between usability and privacy. Android does this correctly. Google's Android devices default to usable, which gives you services that are actually useful unlike the iOS apps that are missing functionality, and allows the user to install apps that are actually private and set them as default if they prefer. Other Android distributions default to the other side. iOS is worse both for people who value functionality and for people who value privacy because it gives you defaults that are neither private nor usable that you cannot change.
As a start, I'll paste some information from Apple and TechCrunch around when they rebuilt maps from the ground up in 2018:
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“We specifically don’t collect data, even from point A to point B,” notes Cue. “We collect data — when we do it — in an anonymous fashion, in subsections of the whole, so we couldn’t even say that there is a person that went from point A to point B. We’re collecting the segments of it. As you can imagine, that’s always been a key part of doing this. Honestly, we don’t think it buys us anything [to collect more]. We’re not losing any features or capabilities by doing this.”
The segments that he is referring to are sliced out of any given person’s navigation session. Neither the beginning or the end of any trip is ever transmitted to Apple. Rotating identifiers, not personal information, are assigned to any data or requests sent to Apple and it augments the “ground truth” data provided by its own mapping vehicles with this “probe data” sent back from iPhones.
Because only random segments of any person’s drive is ever sent and that data is completely anonymized, there is never a way to tell if any trip was ever a single individual. The local system signs the IDs and only it knows to whom that ID refers. Apple is working very hard here to not know anything about its users. This kind of privacy can’t be added on at the end, it has to be woven in at the ground level.
The secret sauce here is what Apple calls probe data. Essentially little slices of vector data that represent direction and speed transmitted back to Apple completely anonymized with no way to tie it to a specific user or even any given trip. It’s reaching in and sipping a tiny amount of data from millions of users instead, giving it a holistic, real-time picture without compromising user privacy.
All of this, of course, is governed by whether you opted into location services, and can be toggled off using the maps location toggle in the Privacy section of settings.
Apple says that this will have a near zero effect on battery life or data usage, because you’re already using the ‘maps’ features when any probe data is shared and it’s a fraction of what power is being drawn by those activities.
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Impressed they can do that when I’m using offline mapping in an area with no mobile signal.
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/06/the-c... gets into the crypto side of it.
So yes, information about location is being sent to Apple. No, it's not useful for Apple and it is encrypted in a way that Apple can't get it the underlying data.
> Apple returns the encrypted location of the laptop to your iPad, which can use its private key to decrypt it and tell you the laptop's last known location. Meanwhile, Apple has never seen the decrypted location, and since hashing functions are designed to be irreversible, it can't even use the hashed public keys to collect any information about where the device has been.
To sibling commenter: my comment is based on a correct understanding of Location Services, not on anything to do with Find My Device. You don't have to put words in my mouth, especially when I have already explained it using my own words elsewhere in the thread.
But Apple requires a credit card to sign up for a developer account so obviously they're much worse.
And this is ignoring the tons of non-consensual tracking, such as purchasing credit card history, the DoubleClick/GTags/Analytics that infest the web, etc.
Maybe you can get an Android phone and thoroughly deGooglefy it by flashing LineageOS or whatever. I'll give you that, you can't do that with an iPhone. If that's your bar, then so be it. iPhones are not for you.
But the vast vast majority of users will have their privacy better protected by Apple's location services, which don't track you, than Google's pushy and deceptive tracking.
That lawsuit is completely irrelevant to the question of which devices provide more privacy.
> Maybe you can get an Android phone and thoroughly deGooglefy it by flashing LineageOS or whatever.
You don't have to do that. Just don't use apps that use Google services. Done. It's that simple. On Apple devices, you have no choice but to give up your privacy. Worse, you give up your privacy to use garbage services that are less useful than their Google and Amazon counterparts.
Among Apple, Amazon, and Google; only Apple's phones and tablets send your location to Apple every time you use GPS (even if you're not using an Apple app like Apple Maps!). Among those three companies, only Apple requires you to tell Apple every app you install. Among those three companies, only Apple requires you to further associate your banking details with all that data collection if you want to develop apps for your own device.
That is not an honest commitment to privacy. The other two companies let you opt out of all data collection entirely on your devices.
You're absolutely right that it's not a close call.
To millstone because downvotes prevent me from replying: that is data that the users voluntarily gave Google (like their email and documents), and Google collects that data from its services on iOS as well. On Android, you don't have to give Google any of your data at all. It even makes it easy to not send data to Google by letting you choose a default maps application, browser, etc. Compare to Apple, where you must give your location data to Apple if you want to know where you are on iOS, and there is nothing you can do about it. One is clearly worse. Making light of not being able to develop apps for your own devices without handing over banking details is something I never thought I would see on a forum for technologists.