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Re:Computer Scientists Break Traveling Salesperson Record by dang on Thursday October 08, 2020 @04:11PM (#24723351)
We've banned this account for taking HN threads repeatedly into gender flamewar, and other kinds of flamewar, and ignoring our many requests to stop—such as this explanation from just two weeks ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24569144.

Vandalizing HN like this is not cool.

Re:Computer Scientists Break Traveling Salesperson Record by jk700 on Thursday October 08, 2020 @08:04PM (#24725326)
Except maybe for current comment (not really, HN just has more replies on anything these days), nothing actually turned into flamewars, most out of his few "flamewar" comments over many months barely had any replies at all and were just flagged. It seems you are labeling them as flamewar just so you could justify banning him. Possibly because he expressed opinions you consider "politically incorrect" today and you want to suppress such opinions on HN.

Also you can't claim he ignored your many requests to stop, because you never made a single request to stop what can be interpreted the same way by both of you, he probably thought he followed them. Again, you were using this as manufactured justification to ban him.

Re:Computer Scientists Break Traveling Salesperson Record by dang on Friday October 09, 2020 @12:33AM (#24726856)
When someone is routinely dropping lit matches in a dry forest, "he only started one wildfire" is obviously no defense.

Anyone who sincerely wanted to follow the rules at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html would be behaving completely differently. Sincere misunderstandings are generally quite easy to clear up. If someone doesn't sincerely want to follow the site guidelines, they shouldn't be posting here. We're trying for a specific kind of community.

Even the worst case is easy to fix. If someone doesn't want to be banned, they're always welcome to email [email protected] and give us reason to believe that they'll follow the rules in the future.

Re:Computer Scientists Break Traveling Salesperson Record by jk700 on Friday October 09, 2020 @06:36AM (#24728557)
No one can sincerely follow those rules, because they are too subjective. The only reason people tolerate them is because they are not enforced. But when you do enforce something from them, it's always unjust and unfair, like in this case.

> When someone is routinely dropping lit matches in a dry forest, "he only started one wildfire" is obviously no defense.

He has lots and lots of comments of which only a couple that you didn't like. Absolutely nothing like "routinely dropping lit matches".

Re:Computer Scientists Break Traveling Salesperson Record by dang on Friday October 09, 2020 @12:12PM (#24731334)
The vast majority of commenters have no problem following the rules. It's not as if it's hard to avoid getting banned here.
Re:Computer Scientists Break Traveling Salesperson Record by Nuzzerino on Thursday October 08, 2020 @09:15PM (#24725717)
>Also you can't claim he ignored your many requests to stop, because you never made a single request to stop what can be interpreted the same way by both of you, he probably thought he followed them. Again, you were using this as manufactured justification to ban him.

One could attempt to make this same argument over virtually any ban ever. There doesn't need to be a reason in my opinion. HN has never allowed freedom to express any opinion you want. A pattern of unpopular opinions tends to result in an automatic hellban, for example.

Re:Computer Scientists Break Traveling Salesperson Record by jk700 on Friday October 09, 2020 @06:32AM (#24728540)
No, dang is purposely vague in all of his warnings, as if he wants to make sure people won't be able to follow them and it will be up to him to decide whether they did or didn't.

If somehow he slips and they manage to do it, he will rephrase them next time, make them more vague and more subjective to make sure they don't. Like I saw a warning he gave someone to stop creating new accounts every couple of comments, but then in other warnings he stretched his definition farther and farther to include more comments and more time.

Re:Computer Scientists Break Traveling Salesperson Record by happytoexplain on Thursday October 08, 2020 @01:34PM (#24721550)
Why reframe something so harmless with such wild exaggeration and sarcasm?
Re:Computer Scientists Break Traveling Salesperson Record by renewiltord on Thursday October 08, 2020 @01:44PM (#24721657)
I literally didn't even notice until these guys said it. Can't imagine how people care so much about trivialities like this.
Re:Computer Scientists Break Traveling Salesperson Record by war1025 on Thursday October 08, 2020 @01:17PM (#24721372)
I was inclined to comment on the ridiculousness of insisting on using "salesperson" which is a real mouthful to say a hundred times over as is done in the article.

But I figured that was just me being cranky and objectionable lately.

Re:Computer Scientists Break Traveling Salesperson Record by happytoexplain on Thursday October 08, 2020 @01:33PM (#24721534)
From my point of view, having negative emotions about this at all seems "ridiculous", much more describing it as "a mouthful", and framing it as their having "insisted" on doing something, rather than simply having done it.
Re:Computer Scientists Break Traveling Salesperson Record by read_if_gay_ on Thursday October 08, 2020 @03:34PM (#24722909)
If you think it’s ridiculous to get irritated by “salesperson” then it should also be ridiculous to get irritated by “salesman”.
Re:Computer Scientists Break Traveling Salesperson Record by mmm_grayons on Thursday October 08, 2020 @01:43PM (#24721641)
Well, the generally-accepted term has been "salesman" for over a hundred years. Whether or not you approve, it's definitely a conscious choice.

As an aside, can someone explain why a generic "-man" suffix is taken to indicate only the masculine by some people? It's no different than using the masculine for indefinite gender, so why the objections?

Re:Computer Scientists Break Traveling Salesperson Record by JoeAltmaier on Thursday October 08, 2020 @01:46PM (#24721686)
Well, because it says "man" and that means a male. Never mind its from the German where 'man' meant 'person'; today in English we are where we are.

And 'a hundred years' is not much of a defense. Women couldn't sign a mortgage in the US in the 70's. I imagine folks defended that too - "Its the way we've always done it."

Re:Computer Scientists Break Traveling Salesperson Record by vkowalski on Thursday October 08, 2020 @01:53PM (#24721772)
Hupersons, personkind etc. This is not where we are in English.
Re:Computer Scientists Break Traveling Salesperson Record by polynomial on Thursday October 08, 2020 @02:10PM (#24721978)
We'll get there! Baby steps...
Re:Computer Scientists Break Traveling Salesperson Record by 0-_-0 on Thursday October 08, 2020 @03:14PM (#24722678)
A small step for person, a giant leap for personkind!
Re:Computer Scientists Break Traveling Salesperson Record by thursday0987 on Thursday October 08, 2020 @02:06PM (#24721922)
> Women couldn't sign a mortgage in the US in the 70's.

yeah you're going to need to provide a source for such a ridiculous claim. My grandmother has owned her house for much longer than that.

* edit: all you downvoters need to look at the claim being made instead of bringing up different issues. credit cards are not mortgages. "couldn't sign" is not the same as "needed a cosigner" or "discounted rates". the original claim implies that women could not own houses through a bank loan, which is very much false.

Re:Computer Scientists Break Traveling Salesperson Record by wwwwewwww on Thursday October 08, 2020 @02:35PM (#24722249)
It is ridiculous, but also true. It's not that there was a law prohibiting women from signing a mortgage, but there was no law prohibiting banks from discriminating against women - which they did by discounting their income or requiring a male co-signer.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/1802323?seq=1

Re:Computer Scientists Break Traveling Salesperson Record by thursday0987 on Thursday October 08, 2020 @02:52PM (#24722412)
Women could sign a mortgage in the 70s (albiet discounted), so the original claim is false.
Re:Computer Scientists Break Traveling Salesperson Record by X6S1x6Okd1st on Thursday October 08, 2020 @02:20PM (#24722072)
That's not a particularly ridiculous claim if you are familiar with the recent history of civil rights.

https://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/07/living/sixties-women-5-th...

Specifically there wasn't a law to prevent it AFAIK, but in practice banks denied women lines of credit without their husband's approval as a course of normal business.

Re:Computer Scientists Break Traveling Salesperson Record by thursday0987 on Thursday October 08, 2020 @02:53PM (#24722431)
your linked article is talking about credit cards, not mortgages. also its talking about the 60s, not the 70s.

you still have not addressed the claim that "women could not sign mortgages in the 70s"

Re:Computer Scientists Break Traveling Salesperson Record by X6S1x6Okd1st on Thursday October 08, 2020 @03:02PM (#24722530)
As per usual, and especially true in the US, the story is complicated. There was no law on the books that prevented women from signing mortgages in the 60s, but there was systematic discrimination and discounting or ignoring a woman's ability to make good on a loan.

https://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?refe...

> Part I discusses the extent of discrimination against women in this field. It concluded that such discrimination is wide-spread and takes two forms. First, lenders discount a working wife's income when she applies with her husband for a home mortgage. Second, lenders are less likely to make a loan to a single woman than to a man.

Re:Computer Scientists Break Traveling Salesperson Record by D-Coder on Thursday October 08, 2020 @02:13PM (#24722005)
> yeah you're going to need to provide a source for such a ridiculous claim. My grandmother has owned her house for much longer than that.

Maybe not mortgages but this article from 2013: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/25-years-since-women-need_b_4... "25 Years Since Women Needed a Male Co-Signer". (Link should end "b_4164299".)

Re:Computer Scientists Break Traveling Salesperson Record by thursday0987 on Thursday October 08, 2020 @02:55PM (#24722449)
the link you provided is talking about business loans, not mortages.

the original claim was "women couldn't even sign a mortgage in the US in the 70s".

that is a false claim.

Re:Computer Scientists Break Traveling Salesperson Record by tclancy on Thursday October 08, 2020 @09:19PM (#24725742)
If you’ve decided to die on this particular hill, you will need to show the title.
Re:Computer Scientists Break Traveling Salesperson Record by JoeAltmaier on Thursday October 08, 2020 @02:11PM (#24721988)
Sure, own one by inheiriting or paying outright. Its the credit issue that prevented borrowing to buy one.

Our recently deceased Supreme Court Justice was instrumental in securing that right.

Here's a brief history for the Google-challenged: https://www.directlendingsolutions.com/women_and_credit.htm

Re:Computer Scientists Break Traveling Salesperson Record by thursday0987 on Thursday October 08, 2020 @02:57PM (#24722473)
the link you provided is talking about credit cards and needing cosigners.

there is nothing in your link that says that women couldn't sign a mortgage.

the original claim is that "women couldn't even sign a mortgage in the US until the 70s." this claim is false.

Re:Computer Scientists Break Traveling Salesperson Record by JoeAltmaier on Thursday October 08, 2020 @03:14PM (#24722683)
That smacks of pedantry. Sure, its correct, but says nothing about the issue of women buying property, and how they actually couldn't until the '70s. How is it informing this discussion, exactly? Other than earning imaginary internet points?
Re:Computer Scientists Break Traveling Salesperson Record by root_axis on Thursday October 08, 2020 @02:49PM (#24722379)
> Well, the generally-accepted term has been "salesman" for over a hundred years

Who cares? Did your ancestors coin the term or something? You can keep writing "salesman" whenever you write things yourself. "Salesperson" doesn't seem at all offensive, and I think it's bizarre to nitpick such a trivial and irrelevant aspect of the article. It reads to me like political virtue-signaling since the article has nothing to do with the gender of the traveling agent.

Re:Computer Scientists Break Traveling Salesperson Record by mmm_grayons on Thursday October 08, 2020 @04:06PM (#24723288)
I wasn't complaining about the use of the term, I was simply rebutting the parent's claim that the framing of "salesperson" as the deviant term rather than "salesman" was disingenuous given that "salesman" is the status quo.
Re:Computer Scientists Break Traveling Salesperson Record by polynomial on Thursday October 08, 2020 @02:09PM (#24721964)
Look buddy, if you don't understand that certain things just mean certain things, I don't know what to tell you. Stop making everything complicated and just get with the plan.
Re:Computer Scientists Break Traveling Salesperson Record by unknownkadath on Thursday October 08, 2020 @03:06PM (#24722573)
Look buddy, it is natural for an NP-Complete problem to be outside of your comfort zone (probably).

e: well? he's polynomial

Re:Computer Scientists Break Traveling Salesperson Record by dokem on Thursday October 08, 2020 @02:42PM (#24722311)
How has this line of reasoning ever convinced anyone of anything. It’s painfully obvious you’re pushing an opinion.
Re:Computer Scientists Break Traveling Salesperson Record by polynomial on Thursday October 08, 2020 @02:53PM (#24722420)
I only wish the sarcasm was as painfully obvious.
Re:Computer Scientists Break Traveling Salesperson Record by mmm_grayons on Thursday October 08, 2020 @04:18PM (#24723436)
If that was sarcasm, apologies. In a better world, I'd indeed assume it was, but social justice warriors have spoken to me in that manner with a straight face, and it's hard to know for sure.
Re:Computer Scientists Break Traveling Salesperson Record by polynomial on Friday October 09, 2020 @12:14AM (#24726759)
"Look buddy" was supposed to be the tell.
Re:Computer Scientists Break Traveling Salesperson Record by mmm_grayons on Thursday October 08, 2020 @02:11PM (#24721985)
I'm not going to "get with" anyone's plan before I know what it is and why I should support it.
Re:Computer Scientists Break Traveling Salesperson Record by phkahler on Thursday October 08, 2020 @03:35PM (#24722923)
>> which is a real mouthful to say a hundred times over as is done in the article.

It's often reduced to TSP.