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Re:How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only un... by Apocryphon on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @04:57PM (#24712633)
If you're unhappy with a direction of an organization, you may feel a moment of sadness, but then you can go and find likeminded people unhappy with the direction of the group and found a new one. fwiw, I don't see many comments in that thread calling for labor unions.
Re:How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only un... by renewiltord on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @05:17PM (#24712848)
Sure, but if I make the Brazen Bull, and someone else gets it, they're going to put me in the Brazen Bull with my like-minded compatriots, which sort of interrupts the "found a new one" part.

Those guys are waiting on the sidelines and they're stronger than you so when you make the weapon they will take it from you and they'll point it at me. You're no opponent to me, but I've got the Maginot Line and you're the Low Countries. So when I see the Wehrmacht prep the Sichelschnitt, I can either sink the Low Countries or I can extend the Line. And I'm all out of bricks.

And of course you don't see those comments. They rarely speak the truth which they think, but every now and then it glimmers through a crack¹.

¹ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24704597

Re:How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only un... by Apocryphon on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @05:28PM (#24712945)
If your argument relies on the abstract notion that something created can be weaponized against you, then you can extend that argument to any form of human creation or even human self-perpetuation. In which case then your own defense against something being used against you might as well be existential suicide, because in your view the game is so inherently stacked against you, the only winning move is not to play.

Why do I say your argument relies on an abstract notion? Because you've not provided any evidence that any of the efforts to unionize in the U.S. tech industry- whether the Kickstarter union, or the TWC, or any other fledgling efforts to organize- constitute an actual threat to immigration. Sure, you've provided evidence that there are anti-immigrant voices in the industry, and that is definitely a cause for concern. That said, you haven't established any material link that the two distinct phenomena are connected. There's no evidence that anti-H-1B nativists are agitating for unionizing in tech. And no, the US Tech Workers Trojan horse [0] does not count. The only comment you cite is yourself making the case for them and one commentator agreeing with you. Hardly an entire Know-Nothing movement.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24536273

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24536757

Re:How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only un... by renewiltord on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @05:39PM (#24713054)
Well, not anything. Some specific things. For instance, I don't fear a union of Appalachian postal workers. If you go help them unionize, you won't find me standing in the way. If you want to unionize Colorado glass workers, I will cheer you on from here. If the proletariat in the steel mills of Pittsburgh wish to unite, I wish them well.

But tech is dominated by rampant xenophobia from the have-nots. They fear the Chinese, the Indians, the god-knows-who-else. This much is clear. While they are weak and disunited, their force is dissipated in online froth. If they are united, they can probably move mountains.

So, while the status quo is undesirable to me, I'm not all that keen on your providing a platform for xenophobes to unite. Preventing this egg from hatching is the optimal play.

Alternatively, you could adopt a measure of good faith: A founding immutable tenet of all these organizations can be that they will always act to increase the number of legal immigrants that can arrive in America. It's pretty easy to demonstrate that the bomb cannot work against me and all those millions who I count similar to me.

So show me.

Re:How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only un... by Apocryphon on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @06:00PM (#24713270)
I'm a first generation Taiwanese American naturalized citizen. My main experience with the H-1B system is that tech companies play an awful game of locking in workers who may be happier working for a different employer. Others have compared it to indentured servitude, which seems apt. I don't know enough about the system to see how it should be reformed, but I heartily agreed it shouldn't be used to restrict immigration. I usually hate to draw from personal experiences in these conversations, but a debate primarily using emotional appeals drawn from anecdata can only be responded in kind.

I understand that there is an undercurrent of right-wing reaction in Silicon Valley. TechCrunch was breaking the news on neoreactionaries as early as in 2013, and recent political developments have only accelerated right-wing radicalism since then.

That said, by refusing to do something to advance worker power in the fear that it might be used by xenophobes seems like a fundamentally defeatist attitude to take, and rather ignorant of who's who. Xenophobes are not the ones pushing for tech workers to organize.

Re:How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only un... by renewiltord on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @06:07PM (#24713346)
I'm glad you made it. Congratulations. Happy to share this land with someone as articulate as you. And I'm glad you share my fears.

I'm asking for the equivalent of an ignition interlock device. It is not the world. It merely prevents subversion against the cause. Easy to do. Shuts down my line of argument entirely and honestly, I'll be fine with that.

Re:How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only un... by Apocryphon on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @06:11PM (#24713387)
I promise you, if I was to ever start a labor union, I will include that particular proviso.
Re:How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only un... by renewiltord on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @06:19PM (#24713466)
If so, you will find me a trivial recruit and true believer.
Re:How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only un... by Apocryphon on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @06:24PM (#24713508)
Great! Until then, I will simply accept that you are someone with valid fears, but based on your insistence on ignoring abundant evidence, is arguing on bad faith.
Re:How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only un... by renewiltord on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @06:33PM (#24713595)
If that's what it must be, then that's what it must be.