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Re:Type-Level Programming in Rust by chrismorgan on Monday October 05, 2020 @01:53PM (#24690171)
Further to this: transmute is really pretty dangerous, and you’ve got to be very careful if you use it, or you’ll invoke undefined behaviour. And I believe the transmutes in the original article do invoke undefined behaviour, since the layout of the struct is undefined (you’d need to use something like `#[repr(C)]` on the struct to make it be defined). In practice, these particular examples are at least 99.9999% sure to do the right thing in all versions of Rust ever, but you just shouldn’t ever do this—you’re playing with delayed-action napalm. With his background, I feel that Will should have known better than to use unsafe here in this way: because it’s wrong.

Admittedly the SecureVec example is more understandable: because the generic is passed through to Item as well, you’ll need to convert the Vec<Item<T, ItemLevel>> to a Vec<Item<T, MaxLevel<ItemLevel, VecLevel>>>, which… well, it can be done readily enough without unsafe code, by consuming the Vec, mapping each item and collecting to a new vec, but short of a kind of specialisation magic that I don’t think will kick in in this case, that’s going to entail allocating a new vector, so that I would be inclined to use unsafe code here for efficiency; but care should still be taken that it doesn’t invoke undefined behaviour.

But one more word in defence of the transmutes: it makes it obvious that it’s either zero-cost or just a copy, whereas more involved things can become subject to compiler optimisations, so that you don’t know that the whole supposedly-noop transformation will be being optimised out of existence. That confidence and clearly-stated intent is valuable.

Re:Type-Level Programming in Rust by evincarofautumn on Monday October 05, 2020 @03:13PM (#24690961)
Has there been any work in Rust on something like Haskell’s ‘Coercible’? Namely, it defines the precise criteria for safe zero-cost coercions between types that provably have the same representation, and derives the coercions automatically. It guarantees that ‘coerce’ is identical to ‘fmap coerce’, which saves the cost of that exact traverse+reconstruct pattern to change out a phantom type parameter.

There are some deficiencies, most prominently that the “role” system is aggressively monomorphic, so you can’t always prove that two things are coercible—the compiler must conservatively assume that type parameters with unknown roles cannot be coerced—but overall it’s much better than what we had before, and I expect it’ll continue to improve.

Re:Type-Level Programming in Rust by steveklabnik on Monday October 05, 2020 @03:15PM (#24690990)
We have a project group working on "safe transmute", here's their first RFC https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/pull/2981

It cites the Haskell work: https://github.com/jswrenn/rfcs/blob/safer-transmute/text/00...

Re:Type-Level Programming in Rust by evincarofautumn on Monday October 05, 2020 @07:10PM (#24693066)
Cool, thanks!

I’m thinking about a similar sort of coercion system for a language project, and it’s good to have a slightly broader view of the design space. This area hasn’t been very well explored yet, not just in terms of semantics, but also developer ergonomics: most of the time you want to hide representations for convenience, but when considering safe coercions, you really want to make it possible to talk about them explicitly & precisely.

This feature is also very subtle, and right at the very edge of the type system, so it’s extremely easy to break soundness here, usually by failing to consider things like variance. The reason “roles” were added to GHC in the first place isn’t just because of the issue with type families / associated types mentioned in that RFC; it’s also because anything that provides a safe API atop unsafe internals could also be used to violate soundness, especially in conjunction with mutation. The classic examples are: 1. coercing “container of A” to “container of B” using the coercion from A to B, then inserting a B that is not a valid A, either in its value or just because A and B have incompatible trait instances (like ordering or hashing). You need to be able to disallow conversions between things even if they have identical representations.

Re:Type-Level Programming in Rust by kd5bjo on Monday October 05, 2020 @02:25PM (#24690477)
> In practice, these particular examples are at least 99.9999% sure to do the right thing in all versions of Rust ever

I’m pretty sure that declaring both `Item` and `SecureVec` as `#[repr(transparent)]` would cover that last 0.0001% chance: it protects against the extra fields becoming non-zero-size by accident and forces the binary representation to be identical to the first field.

At that point, he’s transmuting between things with the same representation; all that’s left to verify is semantics.

Re:Type-Level Programming in Rust by chrismorgan on Monday October 05, 2020 @02:36PM (#24690596)
I knew there was another #[repr(…)] value, just couldn’t remember its name and didn’t look it up. Thanks for pointing it out. Yep, #[repr(transparent)] is a correct way of fixing the undefined behaviour—and if it won’t compile, then #[repr(C)] will do.
Re:Type-Level Programming in Rust by wcrichton on Monday October 05, 2020 @02:47PM (#24690698)
I didn't know about #[repr(transparent)], I will add that to the blog post. Thank you!