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Re:Vilified early over Covid-19 strategy, Sweden seems to ha... by tomp on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @02:59PM (#24642356)
> new cases per capita

Why is this a relevant metric at all?? UK (where I am) has more confirmed cases than in March, yet comparatively negligible death rate. So the raw new cases metric is obviously completely useless and uninformative, there's clearly something else going on (better management of disease, more medical resources, less extremely vulnerable people, more testing, ...)

Re:Vilified early over Covid-19 strategy, Sweden seems to ha... by rossdavidh on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @03:09PM (#24642479)
If you're looking at human cost, then yes, deaths is what matter. If you're evaluating protocols to prevent infection, then cases per capita is exactly what you care about. The likelihood of death when you get infected could be a better measure of how well the hospital can treat it, for example. But if you're evaluating how well mask-wearing impacts the spread of the virus, then looking at new cases per capita is the metric of interest.
Re:Vilified early over Covid-19 strategy, Sweden seems to ha... by toupeira on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @04:43PM (#24643591)
Cases per capita is still very misleading without accounting for number of tests though, no?

Looking at some countries that offer more detailed data, you can sometimes see the cases double, while hospitalizations and deaths grow at a much lower rate (if at all).

Compare for example the UK:

- This chart for the daily new cases shows a dramatic second wave that even exceeds the first one: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/

- This chart for the positive rate on the other hand shows a modest increase to ~3% over the past few weeks, far below the 30% in April: https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-testing#the-positive-...

- And if you look at the number of tests you'll see it has more than tripled since April, hence the increase in "cases": https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-testing#how-many-test...

Re:Vilified early over Covid-19 strategy, Sweden seems to ha... by thaumasiotes on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @04:13PM (#24643268)
> If you're looking at human cost, then yes, deaths is what matter. If you're evaluating protocols to prevent infection, then cases per capita is exactly what you care about.

But there is no reason to care whether infection is prevented or not, unless infection carries some sort of cost. That metric has no value on its own.

Re:Vilified early over Covid-19 strategy, Sweden seems to ha... by chipotle_coyote on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @04:49PM (#24643658)
I'm genuinely confused at what you're trying to get at here. I mean, in the abstract, sure, if an infection had no "cost" we wouldn't care about how widespread it was. But it's fairly well-established by now that this specific infection carries not only a small but obviously real risk of death, but a risk of lingering, debilitating effects that go far beyond the respiratory system.
Re:Vilified early over Covid-19 strategy, Sweden seems to ha... by carlmr on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @05:43PM (#24644299)
It's a metric of interest, but it's uninteresting if we can't measure it properly.

To get a good estimate we'd have to randomly test the population, instead of measuring people with symptoms. Since a lot of people are asymptomatic or don't get a test since they don't feel too sick. Picking people at random would give us a good overview of active cases.

In March in Germany they were reporting a doubling of cases on TV every day, but they failed to mention that they had administered almost twice the tests as well. So basically the number we were measuring was the number of tests we could administer, which was naturally rising as testing capacities expanded, not the number of Corona cases.

Deaths just seem way more reliable a measure.

Re:Vilified early over Covid-19 strategy, Sweden seems to ha... by rossdavidh on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @07:22PM (#24645280)
Well you are correct about the reliability factor. In theory, we could have randomly tested, but for reasons that escape me this was done almost nowhere. Deaths is more reliable.

However, the metric that is actually at least attempting to measure the underlying reality of interest, here, is not deaths, but cases, that's my only point. But I totally concede that in some cases deaths may be the less bad metric for cases, than confirmed cases.

Re:Vilified early over Covid-19 strategy, Sweden seems to ha... by Gwypaas on Thursday October 01, 2020 @02:33AM (#24647983)
Sweden actually does it. It's PCR tests to track the number and change in ongoing infections in the whole population.

0.9% end of April

0.3% end of May

Zero of the tested were infected end of August

End of September is being published next week

https://www.folkhalsomyndigheten.se/nyheter-och-press/nyhets...

Re:Vilified early over Covid-19 strategy, Sweden seems to ha... by ynfnehf on Thursday October 01, 2020 @03:19AM (#24648272)
On Tuesday, at the press conference, they said that it was 0 in September as well. The more detailed report is published next week.
Re:Vilified early over Covid-19 strategy, Sweden seems to ha... by watwut on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @05:09PM (#24643872)
If you are looking at human cost, it is not just death that matters. The people who have long term consequences matter too. It is that if you dont die you walk away scott free.

It is that there is range of consequences from absolutely nothing to death through "sick for months" and through "maybe lifelong consequences but we dont know yet".

Re:Vilified early over Covid-19 strategy, Sweden seems to ha... by anoncake on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @11:17PM (#24646959)
Do you have evidence that permanent damage occurs in significant numbers?
Re:Vilified early over Covid-19 strategy, Sweden seems to ha... by HarryHirsch on Thursday October 01, 2020 @12:16AM (#24647290)
It's studied, of course, but, yes.

Even if 10 % of patients end up with permanently reduced lung function it's a lot because the disease is so infectious, given the right conditions, and it isn't going anywhere soon, at least not this winter.

Here's an overview: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02598-6

Re:Vilified early over Covid-19 strategy, Sweden seems to ha... by anoncake on Friday October 02, 2020 @02:32AM (#24659589)
I think you have misread the article. It says that less than 10% will even have intermediate-term damage. There is no evidence that any significant numbers of people will have long-term, let alone permanent, damage.
Re:Vilified early over Covid-19 strategy, Sweden seems to ha... by HarryHirsch on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @03:06PM (#24642445)
Why is this a relevant metric at all?

We don't know enough about long-term problems affecting those who caught it, although one glance at Boris Johnson should get anyone worried.

Convalescence is protracted, and there are reports of lung damage and cardiomyopathies in a good number of recovered patients. We don't know yet for certain about neurological problems, but there are indications that covid might cause demyelinating disease, and until that's settled I'm not going to find out.

Re:Vilified early over Covid-19 strategy, Sweden seems to ha... by UncleOxidant on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @03:19PM (#24642588)
> one glance at Boris Johnson should get anyone worried.

He always looked disheveled. Has it gotten worse?

Agreed on he longterm effects, I don't think we know all of the longterm impacts yet and as such I'd prefer to avoid it until a safe vaccine is available.

Re:Vilified early over Covid-19 strategy, Sweden seems to ha... by pvaldes on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @08:18PM (#24645764)
Tired look, red eyes and zombie walking is not a uncommon effect after a new baby arrives at home.
Re:Vilified early over Covid-19 strategy, Sweden seems to ha... by HarryHirsch on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @09:11PM (#24646141)
His kind has nannies.
Re:Vilified early over Covid-19 strategy, Sweden seems to ha... by jokethrowaway on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @04:13PM (#24643267)
Steroid usage is now part of the guidelines, it wasn't in March. Non invasive CPAP are preferred to ventilators (which have a terrible survival rate).
Re:Vilified early over Covid-19 strategy, Sweden seems to ha... by UncleOxidant on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @03:17PM (#24642569)
> yet comparatively negligible death rate.

Isn't this primarily because it's mostly the younger demographic that was getting covid over the summer?