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Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by yardie on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @10:23AM (#24628180)
Managing how others manage money has it's own cost. I wouldn't be surprised if 50% of the assistance budget was allocated to making sure receivers spent it "the right way."

Between the applications, compliance, debit card fees, reimbursement schemes, and a completely separate financial network, that money is sucked out of a system supposedly designed to supposedly help people with money issues.

Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by bnralt on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @11:47AM (#24629245)
Indeed. One city nearby was spending ~$4,500 a month to feed and house families, but the conditions were fairly horrible (dilapidated shelters with communal bathrooms, poor food quality). Simply handing the families the cash would have been better. Of course, then you have other issues like welfare cutoffs and people from other municipalities coming to receive such benefits, problems that would be solved by a nationwide UBI.
Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by tachyonbeam on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @12:54PM (#24630148)
UBI might seem crazy to some people, but I'd like to remind everyone that governments worldwide effectively print trillions of dollars and use that money to inflate stock prices.

Governments could instead distribute the money through UBI. The advantage, if you do that, is that people will spend that money on things they need. This seems better, to me, than keeping alive zombie companies that are "too big to fail" and contribute little to no value to society. If you give people UBI, they are voting with their wallets and giving money to companies that produce something useful.

As for the national debt... When the government borrows money from a central bank, it's effectively borrowing money from itself. They might pretend otherwise, but central banks are effectively an arm of the government. The national debt is an artificial construct. Governments could eliminate it with the stroke of a pen.

Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by phone8675309 on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @05:53PM (#24633475)
> The national debt is an artificial construct. Governments could eliminate it with the stroke of a pen.

Serious question: are there any modern sovereign defaults that don't have a decade or two of stagnation or regression associated with them?

Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by 737maxtw on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @12:31PM (#24629874)
There's also the unspoken issue... there are probably a decent number of people who profit off the current system that who do not want their meal ticket cut off.

(Of course, this is ignoring the idea that UBI would possibly let them do something better with their lives, but humans are gonna human, right?)

Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by bagacrap on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @04:55PM (#24632859)
Yeah, but what happens when someone blows the free money on something besides basic needs, and still needs assistance with food/shelter/medicine/etc? Does society step in again and also provide "managed money" in that case?
Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by jniedrauer on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @05:22PM (#24633160)
Increase the frequency and reduce the quantity of disbursements. This won't solve for individuals who are completely incapable of taking care of themselves, but it will cover the vast majority.
Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by olladecarne on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @08:18PM (#24634569)
I would love to see someone test the difference between a $35 a day vs $1000 a month UBI. The $35 a day approach seems like it would solve a lot of the problems people worry about with regard to misuse.
Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by throwaway98797 on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @10:00PM (#24635063)
How do you pay rent on that?
Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by yardstick on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @12:02AM (#24635594)
I assume landlords would want some sort of automatic standing payment set up so they get paid daily.

If daily UBI was implemented then society will find a way to take the money easily and at low/minimal cost (automated, immediate online bank transfers are free in Europe for many years now). I think landlords would be quite happy as it is guaranteed, no worrying if the person is employed or not.

However back to the original concern about people just spending all this money and having nothing left for essentials, a daily payment still has this problem (ie imagine paying all your UBI on rent with nothing leftover for food, transport, healthcare etc).

Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by throwaway98797 on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @11:01AM (#24639419)
If transaction cost weren’t so high having daily rent deductions seems like a good way to go not only for UBI but for everyone.
Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by Beached on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @06:44PM (#24644920)
They don't, they can pay rent like normal, and if they blow it, they get evicted and become homeless, but next once they get sick of being homeless, they can then learn to save their ubi for 2 weeks to pay rent.
Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by fuzxi on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @01:54AM (#24636049)
You don't have to spend it all every day.
Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by robohoe on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @12:11AM (#24635629)
You save a portion of the $35?
Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by cortesoft on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @05:09PM (#24633019)
If they provide the money at regular intervals, than the person wouldn’t be out of money long even if they blow it all.

My suggestion would be no, we don’t step in. I think for one, we overestimate the number of people who would not use the money for their needs first. I think if we found there were a lot of people who still needed help, we could create an assistance group that can help people find the help they need.

Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by warkdarrior on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @07:48PM (#24634406)
So your solution to people spending all of their UBI money frivolously is to give them even more money? (instead of helping them spend it on, say, essentials)
Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by cortesoft on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @11:14PM (#24635360)
No, I am saying the UBI payments aren’t a lump sum, they are regular payments (like every 2 weeks, for example)

Someone can only blow the two weeks of money.

If they still can’t survive, I am a saying we could have other programs to assist that group (it will be a much smaller population), and I am saying the help would be counseling, training, etc.

Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by stephen_g on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @09:00PM (#24634797)
Various studies have shown that (perhaps surprisingly) just giving people cash works better... I can't read the article (paywall) but I expect that's the point of this trial too.

Of course, it would be good to it while also offering help with education, any substance abuse issues people might have, etc. but the paternalistic kind of "can't trust people on welfare to spend their own money" view just makes things worse. We've definitely seen it in Australia, they created a cashless debit card that locks out certain types of spending and trialled it in certain areas. It's been a massive failure, people not being able to get cash out to pay rent, it doesn't work in a lot of stores, forcing people to higher priced shops that are part of the system, the card has a lot of stigma attached to it so people are ashamed to use it, social outcomes are worse, and the administrative cost per person is about half as much as the actual annual amount given in welfare (!!) but the company that runs the scheme has links to the party that is in Government and donates to politicians so they're expanding the trials of scheme...

Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by chii on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @10:04PM (#24635078)
Or, you let nature take its course.

Society can only help so much - at some point, personal responsibility must step in.

Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by 8fGTBjZxBcHq on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @11:30PM (#24635433)
That's just so heartless. Someone not able to prioritize housing and food over for example drugs has a very serious problem and needs help.

People in that situation are still human and are not doomed. People do recover from such ailments all the time given the right structure and support.

And if they can't recover they still deserve the support. That's our responsibility to each other. When "personal responsibility" means just letting people suffer and die we should leave it behind.

Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by ppf on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @04:07AM (#24636597)
This is exactly why it won't work, according to the UBI "vision" that is usually promoted. There is no way that people who think UBI is a good idea, would also allow the recipients to blow their UBI on dumb stuff and end up on the street. In practice, it would just be a re-branding of the existing system of benefits, with a few more hangers-on.
Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by lmm on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @10:13PM (#24635111)
What happens today to people who are given a room in a shelter and trash it, or spend all their EBT money on products that they resell/trade for drugs?
Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by refurb on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @11:12PM (#24635349)
They end up homeless and begging or stealing to eat.

So, it sounds like UBI would be effective in reducing overhead, but not much else will change if people choose to blow their UBI?

Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by lmm on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @11:31PM (#24635442)
UBI does more than reduce overhead - it gives better incentives and options for people who can't commit to a substantial number of hours per week (at least not initially) to be able to contribute to the economy. But it doesn't solve every problem and shouldn't be expected to.