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Re:US college enrollments are falling, except for graduate d... by WhompingWindows on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @10:00AM (#24627886)
Many of these universities would state the point: university education enriches the mind, introducing students to a broad range of topics, perspectives, and readings that were pivotal to human history and human civilization. For example, at UChicago, the Core Curriculum has most of the students reading Das Kapital by Marx, a text with profound implications for the history of the 20th century.

I'm agnostic about the value of this: on the one hand, we need informed citizenry who can dissect media and think critically. On the other hand, we need practical skills and we don't need a massively indebted younger generation.

The DIRE push for undergraduate education in many K-12 schools has probably undervalued solid vocational training. What does it say that I'm now into woodworking and making things, but in my entire 22 year education, no one ever showed me how to use a single power tool.

Re:US college enrollments are falling, except for graduate d... by whatshisface on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @10:15AM (#24628078)
The irony of putting people in debt in exchange for ordering them to read Das Capital. :)
Re:US college enrollments are falling, except for graduate d... by tharne on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @11:10AM (#24628748)
I laughed so hard I almost spit out my coffee when I read this. Well done.
Re:US college enrollments are falling, except for graduate d... by hoorayimhelping on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @10:19AM (#24628121)
>on the one hand, we need informed citizenry who can dissect media and think critically

That isn't what universities are creating though. They're creating people who think one specific way about the world. The problem is that they only teach Marxist ideas about the 20th century, and you have to go elsewhere to get a balanced and realistic view of what actually happened. My humanities classes 20 years ago all glossed over the horrors of Stalin's gulags, the horrors of Mao's great leap forward, and all the death caused by Marxist ideas being put into practice at a wide scale in the 20th century. I had to learn about all these things from my history classes. My humanities classes were all talking about the evils of capitalism while glossing over the 20-100 million dead from starvation and exposure under totalitarian communist regimes. I can't imagine it's gotten any less biased and one sided in the past 20 years.

Re:US college enrollments are falling, except for graduate d... by Loughla on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @10:37AM (#24628342)
>My humanities classes 20 years ago all glossed over

>I had to learn about all these things from my history classes.

So the education provided you with multiple, different viewpoints, then. If you evaluate specific, individual classes, yes, you'll find a bias depending on the specific, individual faculty. I had faculty ranging from those who extolled the virtues of a strong-man in the white house, to those who wanted a complete anarchy.

I'm willing to bet most university/college educations contain a little bit of everything.

Or, put more simply, wide ranging viewpoints. . . .

Re:US college enrollments are falling, except for graduate d... by dx87 on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @11:11AM (#24628762)
Depending on how you define "a little bit of everything", you'd lose that bet. Colleges have always leaned left politically, but the viewpoint imbalance has been getting larger in recent years. The last study I read said that in social sciences, colleges average 17:1 liberal to conservative professors, whereas in previous decades it was around 4:1. My wife got out of teaching at college because the schools were more interested in pushing a far left ideology that appeals to college students than actually giving them a good education.
Re:US college enrollments are falling, except for graduate d... by adamsea on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @11:27AM (#24628968)
> schools were more interested in pushing a far left ideology that appeals to college students than actually giving them a good education.

Can you summarize the ideology, instead of merely demonizing it? ;)

Re:US college enrollments are falling, except for graduate d... by weakfish on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @11:05AM (#24628688)
FWIW as a current _Political Science_ student, my only marxist professor thus far was muzzled by their department...
Re:US college enrollments are falling, except for graduate d... by adamsea on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @11:27AM (#24628961)
> The problem is that they only teach Marxist ideas about the 20th century

To you, what is a "Marxist idea" about the 20th century?

And if your teacher really did gloss over the crimes against humanity committed by Stalin / the USSR, Mao / the PRRC, then, well, that person was a poor teacher.

Re:US college enrollments are falling, except for graduate d... by JoeAltmaier on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @10:21AM (#24628145)
Sounds like your college did teach you a rounded viewpoint then?
Re:US college enrollments are falling, except for graduate d... by Can_Not on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @05:19PM (#24644001)
Yeah what is this guy complaining about? Learning both sides is now "Propoganda"? They're clearly mad that they didn't experience an echo chamber.
Re:US college enrollments are falling, except for graduate d... by cm2187 on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @10:06AM (#24627961)
Or teaching that math is racist...

If you want to learn humanities, you can pretty much read any book anytime in your life (in fact most of the teaching in humanities is just assigning books to read). I would say that there the value added of a college over an online reading list is marginal. For STEM, completely different story, it is very hard for someone who hasn’t been trained formally to pick it up later in one’s career.

Re:US college enrollments are falling, except for graduate d... by jimbob21 on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @10:16AM (#24628090)
>in fact most of the teaching in humanities is just assigning books to read

I don't know what college you went to, but at mine, reading was the homework, and the discussion on the books (even with the professor's inherent biases) in the class with my peers is what developed the profound thoughts and ideas that I still carry with me. Humanities might not contribute to jobs, (I'm STEM) but I don't for a second regret the philosophy classes I took.

Re:US college enrollments are falling, except for graduate d... by malandrew on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @01:51PM (#24630852)
A lot of this is dependent on class size and class level. It's not until you get to class sizes of less than 20 and at the 300 level and up classes that you get actual discussion instead of lecturing and leading questions. And even smaller class size and higher level isn't a guarantee of good critical dialogue.

I went to a large well ranked public university class in the United States, have both a STEM and non-STEM degree with over 200 credit hours over 4.5 years and I can think of exactly two humanities classes that had real discussions that weren't just being assigned books, largely uncritically accepting their contents and being lectured. Both classes with real dialogue were higher level classes with just over 10 people in them.

One class was about the intersection of art and technology and the other was a philosophy of science class.

There was way more critical thought and dialogue on average in my STEM classes.

Re:US college enrollments are falling, except for graduate d... by SketchySeaBeast on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @11:04AM (#24628677)
> I would say that there the value added of a college over an online reading list is marginal.

If you can read through Descartes' Meditations on First Philosophy and get everything out of it without help good on you, but I certainly couldn't.

Re:US college enrollments are falling, except for graduate d... by munchbunny on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @12:02PM (#24629449)
If you want to learn humanities, you can pretty much read any book anytime in your life (in fact most of the teaching in humanities is just assigning books to read).

The pragmatic part of humanities is argumentation and writing. You can't get that from just reading.

What you're saying is like "the value of a computer science degree over just reading programming books is marginal." It's ignoring that the most important part of the learning happens in application.

Re:US college enrollments are falling, except for graduate d... by adamsea on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @11:23AM (#24628919)
Good luck with James Joyce's Ulysses ... or Samuel Beckett. Or Thomas Pynchon. Or -- the author you didn't even know existed until the domain expert (aka professor) assigned/suggested it.

Or, you know ... history?

Or even Shakespeare, for that matter. For some, a course makes reading such material hugely more enlightening.

Re:US college enrollments are falling, except for graduate d... by cm2187 on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @11:26AM (#24628954)
You are describing a reading list.
Re:US college enrollments are falling, except for graduate d... by adamsea on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @01:59PM (#24641579)
A list to support my argument :)
Re:US college enrollments are falling, except for graduate d... by rexpop on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @10:17AM (#24628100)
> most of the teaching in humanities is just assigning books to read

To you, apparently, one book is as good as another?

Re:US college enrollments are falling, except for graduate d... by na85 on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @11:24AM (#24628925)
>Or teaching that math is racist...

Can you elaborate further?

Re:US college enrollments are falling, except for graduate d... by throwawaysea on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @12:40PM (#24629977)
This is also happening in K12 schools. Seattle, which has a famously far-left leaning school system, is creating a plan to inject ethnic studies and progressive ideology into math classes: https://www.seattletimes.com/education-lab/new-course-outlin...
Re:US college enrollments are falling, except for graduate d... by na85 on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @01:09PM (#24630322)
From that link:

>“How is math manipulated to allow inequality and oppression to persist?”

That doesn't seem like injecting ethnic studies into math to me.

In fact, I think this is an excellent type of question. Schools should be teaching more critical thinking exactly like this, in every domain. For example, manipulation of scales, axes, statistical bias, and mathematical context are one of the key tools that people like climate change deniers use to spread their propaganda. Mathematics education should be about more than just handraulically banging out a bunch of long division. Interpretation and context are key underpinnings of mathematics.

Re:US college enrollments are falling, except for graduate d... by malandrew on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @01:55PM (#24630913)
> "How is math manipulated to allow inequality and oppression to persist?”

Math is also manipulated to allow the perception of inequality and oppression to persist. It's not just one side using these propaganda techniques.

Re:US college enrollments are falling, except for graduate d... by na85 on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @01:57PM (#24630924)
Probably.

Don't you think it's important to teach children to consider how statistics can be cherry picked to support arbitrary agendas?

Re:US college enrollments are falling, except for graduate d... by malandrew on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @02:08PM (#24631062)
Oh course I do, which is why several of my comments in this thread were about the importance of statistics education.

I'm okay with having classes pointing out propaganda so long as it is even handed in pointing out propaganda irrespective of agenda. If a professor only points out the propaganda of those with whom they disagree, that's a bad class.

Re:US college enrollments are falling, except for graduate d... by na85 on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @02:26PM (#24631246)
Part of educational development has to include the realization that your instructors themselves have individual biases. To expect educators to be completely even handed and bias free is unrealistic.
Re:US college enrollments are falling, except for graduate d... by malandrew on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @02:29PM (#24631280)
Agree and I think many people here on HN realize that. I can't say the same for many of the people I know that are college educated, which leads me to think that we're largely missing that aspect of educational development.
Re:US college enrollments are falling, except for graduate d... by cm2187 on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @11:25AM (#24628942)
Re:US college enrollments are falling, except for graduate d... by na85 on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @11:30AM (#24629013)
Paywalled, but the part I was able to read wasn't suggesting "math is racist".

Sorry I asked.

Re:US college enrollments are falling, except for graduate d... by leetcrew on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @12:39PM (#24629969)
no you're right. I was able to read the article in full and it doesn't say anything like that. the only thing it said about the math department was that they were going to allow students to apply for "lenient grading" if they felt their studies were negatively impacted by the george floyd killing.

to be fair, there is a subset of leftist thought that advocates placing lived experiences above statistical arguments. you can see this play out on social media where people are scolded for not being fully convinced by an individual's personal story about {insert macro issue}. the argument here is not that math itself is racist (how could it be?), but that the study and application of it can be. in other words, if statistics is disproportionately studied by an already-dominant subset of society, its application will likely lead to conclusions that more or less support the status quo.

Re:US college enrollments are falling, except for graduate d... by sokoloff on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @02:02PM (#24631000)
If your studies were negatively impacted by <whatever factor outside your control>, why would "lenient grading" be the right response?

"You get a no-penalty 'incomplete' and can complete the course later" seems vastly more appropriate than saying you learned something that you haven't. I'm sure some people were negatively impacted; they should not suffer a poor grade as a result. Nor should they be granted a better grade than the ability they demonstrated.

Re:US college enrollments are falling, except for graduate d... by leetcrew on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @02:57PM (#24631571)
> If your studies were negatively impacted by <whatever factor outside your control>, why would "lenient grading" be the right response?

I'm not necessarily saying it is, just that the issue covered in the article is only tangentially related to the "math is now racist" strawman. personally, I think no-penalty incomplete would be more fair, although I'm sure someone could find issues with that too.

my guess is "lenient grading" starts to seem more reasonable when you take into account what a lot of schools were already doing in response to covid and remote learning at this time. giving incompletes is a reasonable measure to take when you have a couple students with extenuating circumstances. but what do you do when almost all the students have been impacted by a sudden shift to remote learning? you can't just give the whole class an incomplete and delay everyone by some fraction of a semester.

Re:US college enrollments are falling, except for graduate d... by sokoloff on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @03:06PM (#24631676)
> you can't just give the whole class an incomplete and delay everyone by some fraction of a semester.

Why not? If it was medical school and you didn't learn topic XYZ, you'd rightly be held back until you did (or at least I hope you would).

Are we giving grades based on effort/attempt or based on knowledge acquired?

Re:US college enrollments are falling, except for graduate d... by leetcrew on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @03:26PM (#24631876)
> Are we giving grades based on effort/attempt or based on knowledge acquired?

it's not really that simple. grades are just a way to measure how well students have met the course expectations. the expectations may or may not be reasonable in the first place. if there was no curving and year after year, 90% of students fail a course, the material would get adjusted. either fewer topics would be covered, or less difficult problems would be selected from each topic. the syllabus itself is an implicit curve, in a way. when someone designs a data structures course, they design it in a way that a target portion of the students will actually pass the class. they don't just say "well, arrays, linked lists, binary trees, rb-trees, BSPs, splay trees, octtrees, hashmaps, bloom filters, skiplists, and all the different types of heaps are essential topics and everyone who can't master every single one in 16 weeks fails". there's no objective standard for exactly what set of topics needs to be covered and learned in a particular course (or major), you just try to teach as much as is reasonable.

Re:US college enrollments are falling, except for graduate d... by ativzzz on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @12:35PM (#24629929)
> no one ever showed me how to use a single power tool.

This is because using power tools is most of the time following safety protocols and reading the instruction manual. if you learned how to read well, you shouldn't need someone to teach you this (unless you're using highly specialized tools for niche situations, but that's more of vocational training)

Re:US college enrollments are falling, except for graduate d... by sokoloff on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @02:07PM (#24631048)
What? There's a lot more to learning the intersection of power tools and a given craft area X than just how to not hurt yourself.

Why would I use a spade vs a single point vs a Forstner drill bit? When would I use a backer board? When would I use conventional cutting vs climb cutting? If I want to achieve tolerance X on face F, what should be my sequence of operations? How can I fixture this work to give me the best results? When is a circular saw vs a table saw vs a jig saw vs a mitre saw appropriate?