News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Won’t Subscribe by ricardobeat on Monday September 28, 2020 @05:09AM (#24614593)
Bring back traditional advertising. No user profiling, no retargeting, no data collection. Pay for exposure and not clicks. Problem solved. Micropayments is a red herring.

Print newspapers use to cost what, 50c a piece? And that included an absolutely massive printing, sales and distribution infrastructure. It is preposterous that digital publishing would cost more.

Re:Won’t Subscribe by kevsim on Monday September 28, 2020 @05:52AM (#24614894)
I think if the world switched back to traditional advertising (which on the web for me means contextual targeting) and we stopped allowing third party ads to run a bunch of JS, I'd be willing to switch off my ad blockers. Until then, I'm afraid these publications won't be get paid for my eyes/clicks.
Re:Won’t Subscribe by chrisdinn on Monday September 28, 2020 @06:44AM (#24615222)
Underrated idea but very complex in practice. Contextual is coming back regardless as third-party cookies go away. But, I think “traditional” in this sense means brand advertising with broad reach, not micro-targeted messages for narrow audience. Like, why don’t you see nearly as many Coke ads online as you do IRL?

Hypothetically, this kind of advertiser wants “brand safe” context (high-quality, inoffensive, not-too-weird) but is otherwise mostly looking to reach as many people as possible in its core demographics. Figuring out if something is brand safe at the margin is pretty tough and you actually can’t trust ad exchanges for this signal, so that’s what at least some of that JS from advertisers is for. Also, “the margins” on the internet are huge, likely most of the page. Internet has not done well here, traditionally.

These advertisers traditionally loved primetime TV and glossy magazines, with high production values and usually safe content. A surprising amount of this brand money is still in traditional linear TV advertising, despite the fact that most key demos have already given up on linear TV.

Re:Won’t Subscribe by Nextgrid on Monday September 28, 2020 @06:13AM (#24615017)
Another problem with online ads vs traditional media is the lack of human review.

I know I can trust ads that are shown on public transport or in a major printed magazine/newspaper to not be a fly-by-night scam, malware or bullshit dropshipping operation.

On the web, I know I can not trust anything because none of it is reviewed, the ads change depending on the time of day and who looks at them (targeting) and stuff like Taboola/Outbrain are running their entire business on churning out obnoxious content.

Re:Won’t Subscribe by flexie on Monday September 28, 2020 @06:02AM (#24614943)
Developers cost a lot more than typographers and delivery boys and you need a lot of them to run a modern online media. A developer on staff is sort of like a subscription that the newspaper pays.

The way to bring back advertisement to newspapers is to use antitrust rules and to start taxing search engines and social networks. When Facebook or Google runs an ad for my local gym, it is taxed in some remote tropical island (where it's usually not taxed at all). When my local newspaper runs the same ad, it's taxed locally. Basically, where I see the ad.

I don't like advertisement in newspapers more than the next guy but that was how our democracy worked. News media got paid. With that money they could do journalism. Now, most of that money goes to a handful of companies that do very little to keep a check on politicians.

Re:Won’t Subscribe by Nextgrid on Monday September 28, 2020 @06:17AM (#24615043)
Disagreed.

Developers may cost more, but you only need a handful of them for a set period of time and you can build a very simple platform if you don't chase fads (no SPA, no Kubernetes/microservices, no overpriced cloud providers). That is a one-time cost vs ongoing cost of delivery for a physical paper.

There was a submission on here recently about how Remoteok.io runs on a PHP and jQuery (and a very small server behind it according to the comments) and manages to bring around 40k/month.

Re:Won’t Subscribe by tephra on Monday September 28, 2020 @06:44AM (#24615225)
This would of course be true for any software development if we programmers could do real magic and create perfect software.

I assure you (given that I used to work for one of the largest news organisations in Sweden) that there is no such thing as a simple platform when it comes to news. Sure on the front it is "just" a website.

Then of course there is the subscription backends, the systems that calculate how many print papers to send to _each_ little store in the whole country, the system that people write in (regardless if you write your own you still have to have it interface with your backend, and don't forget you need to have a way for your person on the fronline in syria to publish as well), many organisations now have video which is another whole beast. Etc, etc.

Now you might not like it and just want to have just text (I'm many ways I'm with you there) but it's a lot more to having a digital newspaper than you might imagine.

Re:Won’t Subscribe by wodenokoto on Monday September 28, 2020 @06:11AM (#24614998)
> Developers cost a lot more than typographers and delivery boys and you need a lot of them to run a modern online media. A developer on staff is sort of like a subscription that the newspaper pays.

That's quite amazing. Then what was the whole point of going online (broadly speaking), if not to decrease delivery cost of articles?

Re:Won’t Subscribe by helsinkiandrew on Monday September 28, 2020 @06:19AM (#24615057)
> Then what was the whole point of going online (broadly speaking), if not to decrease delivery cost of articles?

To chase the audience that had gone online. The newspapers were loosing customers to other sites that could produce articles cheaply themselves or republish newswire stories or rely on content from users and didn't have the overhead of a traditional newspaper

Re:Won’t Subscribe by ricardobeat on Monday September 28, 2020 @06:50PM (#24622077)
> didn't have the overhead of a traditional newspaper

Hm. So you are saying going online decreases costs? Can't have it both ways...

Re:Won’t Subscribe by helsinkiandrew on Monday September 28, 2020 @11:30PM (#24623941)
No I’m saying people aren’t buying print newspapers. There’s 30% less than in 2000 and the revenue of the remaining has dropped off a cliff. The surviving papers have moved online to find new customers and some have got rid of print version altogether.
Re:Won’t Subscribe by junius2020 on Monday September 28, 2020 @06:21AM (#24615071)
Why would I read online news when I can just have information streamed directly into my consciousness with a brain implant?

Why would I read the newspaper that comes in a few weeks when I can get instant information online?

Why would I wait for the town crier to come through in a few days when I can get instant information from this "news-paper"

Why would I wait until Sunday afternoon at the cathedral to get the town news when we're all assembled together in the middle ages when the town crier is coming past later this week?

Re:Won’t Subscribe by names_are_hard on Monday September 28, 2020 @06:27AM (#24615098)
You only need a lot of developers if you are trying to do sophisticated things with tracking, engagement, etc. A basic WordPress install doesn't require a team of developers to run full-time and that's the equivalent of a printed paper.
Re:Won’t Subscribe by nobody9999 on Monday September 28, 2020 @12:52PM (#24618672)
I suspect that this isn't a popular viewpoint given that a significant portion of the reading population's livelihood is based on believing differently.
Re:Won’t Subscribe by ricardobeat on Monday September 28, 2020 @06:47PM (#24622052)
You know, since the early 2000s, every single newspaper also had an online presence while delivering their paper. It's literally text and pictures on a screen, not software applications - at least it used to be like that.
Re:Won’t Subscribe by sjy on Monday September 28, 2020 @09:25AM (#24616364)
Have you got a source for the claim about developer costs? It seems believable, but I don’t think many media companies publish detailed information about their labour costs, and I also expect a huge difference between eg. local news and global mastheads with scaling issues.
Re:Won’t Subscribe by mcherm on Monday September 28, 2020 @05:49AM (#24614865)
That cost also was supported by significant advertising revenues, including things like a "classified ads section" and "want ads", whole categories that now support separate industries.
Re:Won’t Subscribe by jdietrich on Monday September 28, 2020 @01:11PM (#24618898)
>Problem solved.

Nope. Ad CPMs in the print era were an order of magnitude higher than today. All of the shady online advertising tactics are an effort to improve CPMs and eke out something resembling a functioning business model. Removing those tricks just means making less money, for businesses who are already barely surviving.

Print newspapers used to cost 50c because of the classified section. Online news didn't kill the newspaper business - Craigslist, Zillow and Monster did.

Re:Won’t Subscribe by dinoreic on Monday September 28, 2020 @06:32AM (#24615157)
I assume readership base per particular publication is lower then before plus when in open market they get lower $ for x views then they used to.
Re:Won’t Subscribe by tannhaeuser on Monday September 28, 2020 @06:24AM (#24615083)
FWIW, media doesn't reach me at all anymore in EU with massive cookie banners everywhere (which is a good thing). Maybe I'm not in the target demographic anymore ;) but I can't believe advertisers don't see a dent in impressions. In fact, their continued reliance on targeted advertising makes me believe CTRs and other metrics are manufactured anyway. It's not like GOOG and FB figures can be verified independently.