Florida Man informs Sweden and Germany that their societies are failing. In other news https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBqY-4oDWAQ&feature=youtu.be...

But in all seriousness, Germany and Sweden (and the USA for that matter) all have sub-replacement fertility rates. I understand that you believe that people will reproduce like rabbits, especially if incentivized, but the data doesn't reflect that.

In every system there are those that game the system. The question is: does the benefit for the majority outweigh the cost of those abusing the benefit?

Does Sweden want more kids? If so, I don't think someone having 12 kids is really abusing the benefit, but rather providing Sweden with what it wants.

This is only problem with that is out economic system. Normally I would assume that would clearly point out the perversion of it, but that seems to be just a dream. Otherwise humanity isn't really in danger of dying out.

You think people not having children are abusing the system? I know many who just don't want to become parents at 40 anymore, so they will never have children. That decision is also influenced by economic situations.

I am a Swede - there is no way that I want 12 kids. From both a personal point of view, and for the environmental reasons (though I get it if you are adopting).

Most swedes don't want so many kids.

Well I don't want 12 kids, but my mindset changes if enough kids means early retirement ;)

I don't think you can relax a lot and enjoy retirement with 12 kids at home ;) This sounds like hard work to me..

With that many kids the older ones are probably helping raise the younger. My wife's cousin has 5 kids (in relatively short intervals, I think there's less than 10 years between the oldest and youngest) & the 2 oldest ones help out a lot.

So it turns into more of a management role, and less like hard labor. Still not really retirement.

Yeah I dont think you'll be lazying about but also that the difficulty is much less than a linear 12x the difficulty of raising one child.

Even if we're being that cynical - taking on much more work than you can handle and increasing your expenses multiple multiple times for the next 20 years - that's not retirement.

Sweden also pays you per kid. At 11 kids you'd get about $24k a year since it scales up. As long as you live in a cheap area you don't have to spend that much money on the kids, since you don't pay for education or healthcare or daycare. Also since you are on parental leave you still get that money.

Countries like Sweden have many forms of welfare. A lot of people are working for cultural and pride reasons and not because they would be living under a bridge or on Howard St if they weren't working.

I think having 12 kids is a lot harder than going to work...

I think having one kid is a lot harder than going to work, when you work in IT.

yeah, but still a job where its easier to have 12 kids? And just imagine for the mother....

What work, and what resources do you have in each respective situation?

I dont understand what you are trying to say.

But it doesn't matter. I don't care if someone decides they want 12 kids, even if it is to avoid work. As long as those 12 kids are taken care of - and it isn't causing the women health issues at all - I'm not concerned, though I hope that at least some of those 12 are adoptions or foster children.

Some people really like to raise children, multiples.

But lets not forget that children are work. More children, more work. The thought that you are 'retiring' and relaxing just isn't so: for 14+ years, you always have a diaper to change, you always need to keep a childproof house, you always need to toilet train someone. For some years, you always have a preteen to watch over. Someone just going off to college. Etc.

But again, this isn't the norm. Even large families rarely have so many children. The amount of folks that try to have 12 children is such a small portion that it isn't worth worrying about and honestly, just parrots right-wing fears that folks are having children to get money from the government.

There is a lot of evidence to suggest that people want to be sexually active and don't want children until they have an existential crisis and many existing people are unplanned happenstances.

Educated people don't have enough children to replace themselves, and its not because they are too busy.

Give people the choice and most choose to do things preventing children until they have existential crisis. Remove the choice and people are have children at twice the rate, pretty much coinciding with when they become sexually active.

It's not that hard to understand or perceive.

> Give people the choice and most choose to do things preventing children until they have existential crisis.

Do you have some data to back that?

Would you mind sharing some of these evidence ?

Average age of first birth by country, across years.

In a place like the US you can get more granular data down to the county level and see the same thing. Economic centers having the same trends in first birth age as other developed nations.

There is an even distribution of sexual activity, you might just have to trust me on that one, but there might be some study to cross reference and show thats a constant.

Given the same result occurring in so many places, the evidence suggests people aren't interested in children until they are afraid they can't pass on their genes in a healthy way. Fix that and I would expect to see the age increasing another ten years. Fix the stamina deterioration and I would expect to see the age increasing further again.

You seem to ne completely writing off many other factors that could make having kids later (at which age are people wealthy, independent, secure about their future, committed in a relationship, etc... compared to X generation ago ? How much access to people have to contraception ?) , as well as factors that could make you have kids earlier (peer pressure, cultural norms, etc...).

"People being more selfish" might definitely be a factor, but you might come across as considering it like the factor, which would required exceptional data..

> you might come across as considering it like the factor

I used the word suggest and chose it specifically. I did consider those things and chose not to write a dissertation to convey the exact same concept as the word "suggest". Do with it what you will.

It is possible to be reductive because the same thing happens in so many places. I think there are very few exceptions to "educated, choices, access to contraception" where "cultural peer pressure to have children young" actually works.

Having 12 kids seems like a lot more work than most jobs.

Dunno man, raising kids is hard work. Although I heard incremental difficulty of raising more than 2 is sub-linear.

Probably not many houses in Sweden can fit 12 kids?

I’d say it’s probably more like there aren’t many Swedes who could deal with a house with 12 kids. The after school logistics alone must be a nightmare.

Either that, or there’s something plugging the loophole the GP mentions.

What about the difficulty of having 12 pregnancies? You'd have to set aside 12 years in the first place. A woman in such a family isn't planning on working.

Women don't need to be off work for the entire pregnancy nor the entire year after giving birth, though. If you are splitting your maternity leave with your spouse, you might not take an entire year off. You might just take the time that pays you more instead of being paid less: I don't know how it is other places, but you aren't getting paid for maternity leave if you don't work. (IIRC, in norway, the man doesn't get much leave if the woman isn't working).

Your job is probably protected while on maternity leave too.

I*d say that one of the main difficulties with 12 pregnancies is the actual pregnancies - they are hard on the body and honestly, it isn't recommended that folks have a pregnancy a year - if one even is able to have so many. The more likely situation is that having 12 children means some of those children are fosters or adoptions. And at that point, I don't actually care if someone has 12 children so long as they are good parents.

Your point is taken, but you’re assuming something about the family structure of said hypothetical, 12-kid house.

they might not have the same mother, though it is possible if you start early enough - but the health risk is terrifyingly large.

Would "taking full advantage of a situation" being frowned upon suffice in swedish society?

I would say so. Social pressures are very powerful forces that act on humans. Last I checked, Swedes were human, too. :-)

Geopolitics and prison are the only two areas I'm aware of where everything becomes a strictly transactional all against all.

The kids are a big win for society, so it's not an exploit, it's an incentive to breed.

Twelve kids is 24/7 work.

Why I would change 8 hours to it?

It is also unethical way of life in this planet.

> It is also unethical way of life in this planet.

Let’s not project western purity codes to the entire planet. This planet still has countries with high mortality rates, infant and otherwise.

Well, the context is specifically Sweden. I don't think that's projecting any "western purity codes" anywhere.

> It is also unethical way of life in this planet.

According to you.

The fertility rate is about identical or even a little lower among Swedes with at least one foreign-born parent [1], although there is some difference for foreign-born Swedes [2].

[1] https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Total-fertility-rate-by-...

[2] https://www.forbes.com/sites/ebauer/2019/08/09/is-sweden-our...

I take the point, but there is a lot of evidence that birth rates decline as safety increases (this includes financial safety).

Here is one study (of many): https://www.researchgate.net/publication/337068662_Declined_...

Even in the UK (from where I come) it's only first generation migrants that have many children, the second generation seems to fall in line with the society. From my anecdotal experience.