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Re:Daniel Ek commits to investing €1B in European ”moonshots” by auganov on Saturday September 26, 2020 @04:42PM (#24601947)
Or EU could stop ruining the market with all their current programs and deregulate. Most "startups" in the EU are nothing more than grant chasers. There's very little private VC money because of all the grants. Even legitimate projects that take these grants aren't necessarily any better for it because of all the overhead they introduce.

It's most pronounced in new EU countries that get flooded with these funds.

Re:Daniel Ek commits to investing €1B in European ”moonshots” by mschuster91 on Saturday September 26, 2020 @05:10PM (#24602141)
> There's very little private VC money because of all the grants.

That's wrong. There are four real reasons:

1) our pension systems are mostly government run and on a rolling scheme (i.e. payments from current workers fund current pensioners, in exchange for future-redeemable points). That means that there is a lot less of "dumb cash" lying around in pension funds that screams to be invested for decades... historically that cash used to be put into "safe bets" such as government bonds but their returns are at below-inflation rates, and the only thing that is "profitable" is spreading out the cash over either the big tech companies or small startups.

2) networking. Just look who's in the "angel investor" rounds: people, both founders and early employees who got lots of money in the dotcom era or in the IPOs of the last years - they are all concentrated in the SV area, and enjoy the benefits of close personal contact, and then of course there is YC and a couple of less known clones which come in later. We simply do not have such networks in Europe.

3) risk aversity. Europeans do not like risk, the most obvious example being us Germans who are notorious for being risk averse, so risk averse that our car companies, 12 years after Tesla hit the market, still believe they can make "clean ICE" cars (by investing in synth-fuel tech). A side effect of that is the infamous Wirecard scandal - they were hyped so hard by everyone including our Chancellor who went lobbying in China simply because they were the only company other than dinosaur SAP who were German, were in digital business, and had (on the paper...) good business numbers.

4) "rags to riches" mentality: us Europeans have generally decent social security networks, stable government funded education - basically, you don't have that mentality, starting with young people, to "always hustle" to survive. We live mostly generally comfortable lives, but we're not driven to exploit whatever and wherever we can, simply because we don't need to.

The end result: we don't have venture capital simply because there has been no need for it for decades, it's only a recent trend here.

Re:Daniel Ek commits to investing €1B in European ”moonshots” by ry454 on Saturday September 26, 2020 @06:38PM (#24602728)
I think all those investors and the tech activity in the SV area is a side effect of one big DoD's initiative: to build a world-class surveillance network with all the infra around it. They expressed this desire to spend trillions on this and a few companies who made it happen are now valued at 1-2 trillions. Attempts to replicate SV by "investing into startups" is like crafting a wooden airplane to summon goods.
Re:Daniel Ek commits to investing €1B in European ”moonshots” by throwaway250 on Saturday September 26, 2020 @05:42PM (#24602396)
Some of your points make sense but some don’t. Pension funds in the US don’t invest in startups. Also founders of most American tech companies had a pretty comfortable upbringing. Most founders like Mark Zuckerberg or Travis Kalanick come from well-to-do families. So comfortable life doesn’t explain the risk aversion of Europeans.
Re:Daniel Ek commits to investing €1B in European ”moonshots” by refurb on Saturday September 26, 2020 @09:18PM (#24603450)
CALPERS the pension fund for CA govt workers certainly invests in venture capital, which invests in start ups.

https://www.calpers.ca.gov/page/investments/asset-classes/pr...

Re:Daniel Ek commits to investing €1B in European ”moonshots” by stingraycharles on Saturday September 26, 2020 @05:10PM (#24602150)
I think you’re correct when you say that most “innovation” grants are going to companies that are anything but, but to say that most startups are nothing but grant chasers is absolutely not true.

I don’t know where you’re located, but at least here in The Netherlands we seem to have a fairly healthy startup ecosystem, where grants seem to be more of an afterthought because there’s a fair amount of VC money or bootstrapped startups.

Re:Daniel Ek commits to investing €1B in European ”moonshots” by auganov on Saturday September 26, 2020 @07:32PM (#24602974)
I don't know what the experience is like for people in the Netherlands. But a little bit of googling in English shows quite a bit of stories about Dutch funds getting major govt funding and a bunch of govt programs offering startups money.

So I'd wonder how many funds are truly private. And for those that aren't I'd like to see if any bureaucracy gets pushed onto to the startups they fund.

Say EU-funded VCs, due to the special obligations they're under will often make startups comply with many of the same stuff. So even though a startup might not be a grant recipient themselves they will ultimately have to submit to that regime too.

https://www.4impact.vc/rvo

https://venturebeat.com/2014/02/11/gameon-teams-with-dutch-g...

https://business.gov.nl/financing-your-business/funding-and-....

https://business.gov.nl/starting-your-business/launching-an-...

https://impactcity.nl/startup/financing/seed-funding/

Re:Daniel Ek commits to investing €1B in European ”moonshots” by stingraycharles on Sunday September 27, 2020 @01:29AM (#24604432)
That’s a fair comment, and I had not considered that. I do know a VC, HollandVentures, that’s one of the VCs that works with EU funding, but I also know many other VCs that, as far as I can tell, work solely with private money.

https://nlfunding.co/ provides a list of all VCs active in The Netherlands, and while a few obvious ones are working with EU grants, I have no reason to believe most of them do.

Regardless, my response was mostly to the “EU startups are grant chasers” comment, which I still believe is an unfair depiction.

Re:Daniel Ek commits to investing €1B in European ”moonshots” by lowdose on Saturday September 26, 2020 @05:16PM (#24602200)
Which Dutch unicorns came out of that ecosystem you are talking about?
Re:Daniel Ek commits to investing €1B in European ”moonshots” by stingraycharles on Saturday September 26, 2020 @05:28PM (#24602289)
I don’t know whether they’re Unicorns, but at least we have companies like Booking.com, Adyen, you could argue Gitlab has Dutch roots, and smaller ones such as MessageBird, WeTransfer, Usabilla, etc. These are more well known names, but there are plenty and plenty of smaller ones, where “small” can still be around a hundred employees.

Again, I’m not claiming that our startup climate is anything like what your see in SV, but it’s definitely a fairly healthy scene, and it would be an insult to characterize these as grant chasers.

Re:Daniel Ek commits to investing €1B in European ”moonshots” by barry-cotter on Sunday September 27, 2020 @03:05AM (#24604823)
Booking is a wholly owned subsidiary of Priceline, a US company and has been for the majority of its existence. It was bought for its considerable IT assets after going bankrupt, IIRC.
Re:Daniel Ek commits to investing €1B in European ”moonshots” by stingraycharles on Sunday September 27, 2020 @08:53AM (#24606266)
Yes, but I was using it as an example of a healthy Dutch startup ecosystem, and I still believe it is a good argument. I wouldn’t consider Booking.com a startup anymore anyway, just like TomTom etc, but that’s missing the point: they had their roots here, and are good examples of a counter argument that they are merely “grant chasers”.
Re:Daniel Ek commits to investing €1B in European ”moonshots” by lowdose on Saturday September 26, 2020 @05:41PM (#24602384)
Gitlab is a remote company because of the poor health of the ecosystem.

Mollie & Adyen have had success because of the walled garden iDeal payment system of the Dutch banks. Eindhoven was a very innovative region until Philips decided to move HQ.

Even Sweden produced more unicorns with a population size a 1/3 of the Netherlands.

Maybe you have had more luck with raising money but I experienced a lot of stupidity from private investors.

Re:Daniel Ek commits to investing €1B in European ”moonshots” by dmitriid on Saturday September 26, 2020 @05:23PM (#24602250)
> Most "startups" in the EU are nothing more than grant chasers. There's very little private VC money because of all the grants.

Potato potato. Most "startups" in the US are nothing but VC money chasers and often lose billions of infinite investor money (looking at you, Uber) for indefinite periods of time. How is this different from grants other than it's "free" government money in one case and "free" VC money in the other?

Re:Daniel Ek commits to investing €1B in European ”moonshots” by auganov on Saturday September 26, 2020 @05:44PM (#24602408)
Very different. In that sense the VC money is actually "free" money.

When you get a grant you're subject to many rules. You usually have to submit a budget and money will only get disbursed in accordance with that plan. And there may be many limitations as to what the budget can contain in the first place. Say only X percent can go towards Y class of spending.

Your startup is doing poorly and you want to downsize? Well you can't because you budgeted for X people. Want to cut or increase salaries? You can't. I mean you could fire these people but you'd be forfeiting the funds. So people don't.

Then there's pressure. [Private] VC is an honor system. There are very few legal obligations but you're expected to perform. Your continued access to funds will mostly depend on how you're perceived by the VCs.

With grants you only need to follow legal requirements. No pressure to perform. The agencies only care about you following the rules. When applying for more money, again, you need to fulfill a bunch of requirements. There's not much of a reputation system. If you get denied but meet all the formal requirements you can often sue and win.

And since there's no dilution there's no limit to how many different grants you can take.

Re:Daniel Ek commits to investing €1B in European ”moonshots” by yholio on Saturday September 26, 2020 @06:07PM (#24602552)
I think both of you make interesting points. Clearly, the US market-driven model is more successful at producing companies that can internationalize. But there is little doubt the explosion in venture funds is tied to the financial climate pursued by the US government.
Re:Daniel Ek commits to investing €1B in European ”moonshots” by Ericson2314 on Saturday September 26, 2020 @06:01PM (#24602520)
And if that VC money comes from QE....wait...