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Re:The K-shaped recovery by lotsofpulp on Friday September 25, 2020 @02:09PM (#24592509)
That's the point. A significant portion of US voters, at least in the districts that matter, want to pick and choose who they help.

Higher taxes and government provided safety nets are less biased than charities. Why would I be proud of a country where people beg on Facebook for donations when their family gets cancer, and a significant portion of those go on to vote against things like universal healthcare, parental leave, minimum sick leave/vacation leave, etc.

Re:The K-shaped recovery by luckylion on Friday September 25, 2020 @02:22PM (#24592661)
> Higher taxes and government provided safety nets are less biased than charities.

They also incentivize problematic behavior. When there's no chance in hell that you won't get the money, you have little incentive to change your ways to become a productive member of society. Moral hazards are a thing.

Re:The K-shaped recovery by yongjik on Friday September 25, 2020 @04:17PM (#24593702)
Au contraire, when your life is on the edge all the time, people have every incentive to cling to whatever they have, and never change, because you have one mistake or accident and your life is screwed.

Case in point: USA has a very well-developed bankruptcy system. Losing a business frequently means your business debts are absolved and you can start anew. One may think that such a system will encourage people to throw money at bad decisions: however, a bigger effect is that people are encouraged to cut the loss at a reasonable point and start a new business, because you can take calculated risks.

There are (or used to be) arcane economic systems based upon the reverse principle: if your business fails your life is ruined, so you have every incentive to stick to it until the bitter end, using up every resource, including your personal money, your family money, and your relatives' money. (South Korea used to be like that.) And guess what? It didn't bring more successful businesses, just more suffering.

Re:The K-shaped recovery by luckylion on Saturday September 26, 2020 @03:55AM (#24597153)
You appear to misunderstand me. I'm not saying "remove all safety nets", I like safety nets for the exact reason you stated, they allow some amount of risk, they cover you when extraordinary events happen, and allow you to get back up instead of falling endlessly.

They're not all positive though, they are incentivizing a part of the population to not contribute. I live around such people, and I have no doubt that they'd contribute if the alternative was going hungry and sleeping outside. But since the alternative is a 70sqm flat, a tv, xbox and smartphone, utilities paid for and food in the kitchen, they don't see a reason to contribute - it would just mean spending time doing things they don't like for more money. But as they already have their needs and most of their desires covered, that's not a good offer to them. They're perpetually relying on the safety net, and it tends to become intergenerational.

If you want to install a safety net, it's wise to address that issue.

Re:The K-shaped recovery by alexilliamson on Friday September 25, 2020 @02:29PM (#24592729)
Citation? I believe this is a pretty active and contested area of research, so I'm a little skeptical of the problematic behaviors that you claim are incentivized.
Re:The K-shaped recovery by luckylion on Friday September 25, 2020 @03:45PM (#24593427)
I invite you to come over for a coffee and meet my neighbors. When you're okay with what you get for free, there's no compelling reason to expend energy other than moral duty. When you remove that duty by turning non-participation into a right, you get a group of people who will rely on it.

Not all will, obviously. Some actually need the safety net (e.g. disabled people), others fall into it and then get up again. It's the ones who don't want to get up again that are the issue.

Re:The K-shaped recovery by myvoiceismypass on Friday September 25, 2020 @02:43PM (#24592862)
I take offense to your assertion that people that rely on safety nets are not “productive members of society”.
Re:The K-shaped recovery by luckylion on Friday September 25, 2020 @03:40PM (#24593384)
If you're not producing anything, you're not productive. They're still members of society, but they're not contributing.

I'd rather have them return to contributing than pretending that, if we didn't have people who are lazy, we'd invent them.

Re:The K-shaped recovery by jlokier on Friday September 25, 2020 @10:01PM (#24595850)
So, someone who nurses a relative in need 24x7 is "not contributing"?

Those carers are often entirely dependent on safety nets.

That is far from lazy! It's an exhausting thing to do.

Re:The K-shaped recovery by luckylion on Saturday September 26, 2020 @03:48AM (#24597121)
That's not who I was talking about, and it's not a large part of those who perpetually rely on benefits. It's also not common, we've generally got that solved in Europe.
Re:The K-shaped recovery by jlokier on Sunday September 27, 2020 @10:29PM (#24612364)
I'm in Europe too. It's not solved, and it's very common indeed. At any time there are millions of unpaid carers. For many of them full-time work is completely infeasible, and for many others part-time work is infeasible as well.

Heck, for some even getting out to the shops is difficult, as how do you go out if you need to stay with your cared for person all the time.

Maybe you'd consider it solved if you count the benefits on which so many carers rely; certainly not without them.

Even then, I find it striking that benefits for carers where I live are lower than benefits for an unemployed person. As though a carer needs less to live on.

Re:The K-shaped recovery by jonfw on Friday September 25, 2020 @02:18PM (#24592621)
> Why would I be proud of a country where people beg on Facebook for donations when their family gets cancer

So asking for charity is bad, but forcing the government to use it's monopoly of force to take money from others for you is good?

Re:The K-shaped recovery by mrob on Friday September 25, 2020 @03:13PM (#24593138)
Every person is born, without their consent and with a self-preservation instinct they didn't ask for, into a world where almost every resource is withheld from them by that same government violence you're complaining about. Access to resources is mostly distributed according to how good your ancestors were at killing people. Welfare is a partial correction of this injustice.
Re:The K-shaped recovery by creata on Friday September 25, 2020 @02:33PM (#24592768)
I doubt I can convince you, but yes, no cancer patient should have to beg for their treatment. And yes, I think it is good that the government takes money from its people to that end. The alternative is that the rich people decide who lives and dies, and I find that reprehensible.
Re:The K-shaped recovery by jonfw on Friday September 25, 2020 @02:37PM (#24592806)
The government deciding who lives and dies, however, is fine and OK?
Re:The K-shaped recovery by nemothekid on Friday September 25, 2020 @02:57PM (#24592992)
I don't understand are you purposely deflecting or are did you not understand his point. Maybe it's easier if we used schooling as an example. Do you believe, today, that the government decides which children go to school? I think any reasonable argument would be no, the government, tries to ensure every child goes to school.

Would you rather replace this with a system where children had to beg on gofundme for middle school tuition, where funding is implicitly decided by who has the best sob story and appeases the FB algorthim for that day.

Replace school with health care and his point is clear.

Re:The K-shaped recovery by techsupporter on Friday September 25, 2020 @02:53PM (#24592944)
As opposed to private insurers (who routinely deny treatment for people deemed as "not sufficiently likely to recover," assuming they even bother applying a reason) or hoping that the charitable giving of a person's friends and families will carry the day?

Absolutely. I will, with no hesitation, be fine with that trade.

A government, or more broadly, a society has no requirement to earn a profit and every incentive to keep its citizens healthy and happy so as to be positive members of society in order to perpetuate that society.

Remember that, in some areas of the country, fire protection is for-profit and if you didn't pay your fire company dues, your house will burn while you watch. Meanwhile, in the "socialist" areas with government-owned-and-operated fire departments, everyone's residence will receive at least some protection.

Re:The K-shaped recovery by edoceo on Friday September 25, 2020 @03:26PM (#24593268)
You're right! It's better that for profit medical & insurance companies, with CEO compensation 800% higher than their average worker pay, makes these decisions.
Re:The K-shaped recovery by groby_b on Friday September 25, 2020 @02:55PM (#24592966)
One, the government doesn't decide that. It's lovely propaganda, but it's just not what happens. Not in countries with decent healthcare, and not in the US.

Two, if there's any body who would need to decide that, yes, the government would be a much more appropriate body than individuals - it is at least theoretically a representative of the whole population.

Re:The K-shaped recovery by nickff on Friday September 25, 2020 @02:59PM (#24593009)
I agree that it would be best if everyone could receive a high standard of care without begging, but I would personally prefer this to be paid for with minimal government intervention. I believe that charity is good for both the donor and the recipient, as it creates a feeling of social connection, through more 'personal' institutions, and develops a sense of empathy in the participants, which is lacking in government programs.
Re:The K-shaped recovery by srtjstjsj on Friday September 25, 2020 @09:39PM (#24595747)
Unfortunately people aren't charitable enough to sustain a population.
Re:The K-shaped recovery by 49531 on Friday September 25, 2020 @02:32PM (#24592754)
Is that not the entire point of society? I sacrifice some of my independence so that I can enjoy the infrastructure of civilization? None of us are an island.
Re:The K-shaped recovery by jonfw on Friday September 25, 2020 @02:41PM (#24592838)
I think the best parts of society come from collaborative and social effort- where people agree to share resources in pursuit of a common goal.

I don't think the entire point of society is to force people to participate in your choice program under threat of jailing

Re:The K-shaped recovery by leetcrew on Friday September 25, 2020 @04:55PM (#24594005)
> I think the best parts of society come from collaborative and social effort- where people agree to share resources in pursuit of a common goal.

people who don't share your (presumably) anti-state views probably think this is basically what government is.

if you rephrased to something like "government action ought to be the last resort for solving the problems of a community", I could agree with you.

Re:The K-shaped recovery by thomaslord on Friday September 25, 2020 @03:59PM (#24593543)
This is the most negative possible framing of the argument at hand.

In my personal position, I want to "force" the government to "use it's [sic] monopoly of force" to accept a little more tax money from me in exchange for making sure that my fellow citizens, whether they're less fortunate or not, don't literally die because they don't have enough pieces of paper to pay for healthcare.

A majority of citizens, including those who regularly give to charity, are not equipped to properly allocate their charitable contributions. I'm not talking about making sure their money goes to the right problem area, I'm talking about making sure it's not funneled into a con man's pocket. Take a look at the financials on major charities and you'll quickly realize that philanthropy doesn't work all that well.

Side note - the government collects taxes, and must continue to do so in order to exist. If you're against taxes as a concept, you're against government existing altogether. If that's the case, your political ideology is effectively anarchism.

Re:The K-shaped recovery by leetcrew on Friday September 25, 2020 @02:27PM (#24592702)
the usual counterargument would be that there is more dignity in petitioning the government to consider it an entitlement/right than in begging for money on facebook.
Re:The K-shaped recovery by jonfw on Friday September 25, 2020 @02:29PM (#24592728)
It's better to force somebody to give you what you want, than to agreeably do so?
Re:The K-shaped recovery by nickff on Friday September 25, 2020 @02:52PM (#24592933)
One important part of charity is that it benefits the donor as well as the recipient; government intervention creates a disconnect, and diminishes empathy.
Re:The K-shaped recovery by srtjstjsj on Friday September 25, 2020 @09:39PM (#24595751)
How is paying taxes less empathetic than paying an NGO?
Re:The K-shaped recovery by JoeAltmaier on Friday September 25, 2020 @04:03PM (#24593589)
We've agreed to cooperate under a government, and that requires taxes. To resort to "they'll use force to make you pay!" is sophistry. There are many, many steps to tax collection beginning with social pressure to conform. Like anything else, the force comes in under extreme cases where somebody sociopathically ignores all pressures and penalties for a considerable time.