News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Really Atari ST? by colejohnson66 on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @08:59AM (#24553893)
As someone who didn’t grow up with many floppy disks, how was one able to format a floppy to have a different capacity? I know there’s different “formats” such as DOS, C64, etc, but I don’t understand why?

I have heard about how formatting a floppy involved placing the tracks and how modern hard drives have “hard sectors”, but for some reason, it’s not “computing.”

Re:Really Atari ST? by Zenst on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @09:42AM (#24554276)
Most discs were rated to format to 80 tracks but some you could format with 81 or 82 and IIRC even 84 on some.

Then there was sectors, which was common to have 8, though again you could with better quality discs (quality did get better ahead of the standards) you could go with 9 sectors and higher - https://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~heha/basteln/PC/usbfloppy/f....

Of course, you could think of it as over-clocking - was no guarantee you get that extra capacity, and the early days - it was really luck, but like most things, quality improves and such avenues of formatting became more accessible.

Re:Really Atari ST? by NovemberWhiskey on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @09:09AM (#24553983)
The floppy drive has a stepper motor that controls the placement of the read/write head above the disk.

In the ST era, the control of that motor was directly under the control of the operating system. For an 80 track disk, the movement required to step between tracks was a certain known amount.

If you formatted the disk with the tracks spaced closer together, by altering the stepper movement during that process, you would 'magically' get more space.

Re:Really Atari ST? by rasz on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @07:16PM (#24561145)
>In the ST era, the control of that motor was directly under the control of the operating system.

No, it was under control of a stepper motor driver circuit located directly on a Floppy drive pcb. This driver in turn received instructions from a dedicated Floppy drive controller (WD1771 and compatibles).

> For an 80 track disk, the movement required to step between tracks was a certain known amount.

"certain known amount" being one step per track

>If you formatted the disk with the tracks spaced closer together, by altering the stepper movement during that process, you would 'magically' get more space.

Above is incorrect.

Its impossible to move HEAD stepper motor between tracks. Floppy drive has a STEP (/STEP) and DIRECTION (/DIR) pins. All you are able to do is pick direction and step one track at a time. Step distance is Fixed. The whole point of using a stepper motor is you dont have to worry about head tracking/alignment.

The only personal computer Floppy drives with flexible head positioning all used voice coil head actuator - Floptical, LS-120/240, Zip drives etc.

https://twtext.com/article/1263702402886057984

Re:Really Atari ST? by kabdib on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @10:59PM (#24562489)
The disk controller chip let you seek track by track. No fine control at all.

You could format extra tracks, if you felt lucky. Usually you could get away with couple extra. I never did this with any files I valued.

Re:Really Atari ST? by prox on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @02:17PM (#24558004)
Weren’t there special compression softwares that added even more capacity?
Re:Really Atari ST? by Zenst on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @05:00PM (#24559822)
There was, can't recall the one that was popular prior to Microsoft adding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DriveSpace MSDOS 6.0
Re:Really Atari ST? by simcop2387 on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @05:55PM (#24560416)
That'd probably be DoubleDisk or Stacker. https://forum.winworldpc.com/discussion/10401/software-spotl...
Re:Really Atari ST? by FilthyAnalyst on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @05:46PM (#24560329)
Stacker was pretty common in the early 90s.
Re:Really Atari ST? by NovemberWhiskey on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @04:18PM (#24559350)
I don't really remember any: my main recollection as an ST user was the format programs that let you increase the track count and the sector density.

I recall the default format was 9 sectors, 80 tracks, 2 sides with 512 bytes per sector = 720KB, and you could push up to sometimes 82/83 tracks and maybe 10 or 11 sectors to get more out of a diskette.

Actually, I think my ST originally came with a single-sided floppy drive and had to be upgraded.

Re:Really Atari ST? by Zenst on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @05:07PM (#24559909)
The initial release of Atari's has single sided drives, I think the 1040ST had Double sided though, they did upgrade that shortly afterwards I believe to enable the marketing bods to show a larger number they could compare to the Amiga. So was only early 512STFM systems and those had a red drive light and the double sided had a green one if my memory holds.

Sad thing was, due to the early single sided models, many games would limit to 720k so as to not limit there market. That saw games that would happily fit upon a single double sided disc, cast upon two floppies forcing switching. So that small batch of single sided initial release systems, really did have a legacy impact that lasted for years and did it no favours.

Re:Really Atari ST? by mytailorisrich on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @09:07AM (#24553968)
Basically your floppy disk is formatted on each side with a number of tracks, each containing a number of sectors of a given size. [1]

The standard 720KB 3.5' floppy disk as used by the Atari ST used 80 tracks of 9 sectors.

With these tools you could format with, say 11 sectors instead of 9 and boost capacity to 880KB (I think the Amiga was doing that as standard).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_floppy_disk_formats

Re:Really Atari ST? by foobarian on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:34PM (#24557448)
On top of that some tools (I used fdformat) shifted the sectors to speed up sequential reads, i.e. have the first sector of the next track rotate in under the r/w head right as the head arrives.

Edit: another unrelated practice was buying up cheap(er) single-density disks, which were distinguished by the lack of a marker hole opposite the r/o protection slider, and used only one side of the medium for data. By drilling it out, one could trick the drives into using both sides, which usually worked out just fine. Mentioned here [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-sided_disk

Re:Really Atari ST? by Zenst on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @05:17PM (#24560033)
Ah yes, interleaving of the sectors. More prominant with early HD's and using tools like spinwrite to optimise the interleaving. Today it's all 1:1 as processing from the heads just been fast enough for decades to handle the speeds.

Spinwrite still exists, though in the early days/versions it was the golden tool for tuning up a system and could make huge differences. Like double your drive speed and more in some instances, but talking late 80's early 90's here when interleaving was thing and mid 90's 1:1 became the norm and made it moot. https://www.grc.com/Spinrite.htm

Re:Really Atari ST? by 6581 on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @06:01PM (#24560474)
Single-density is not the same as single-sided. There are single-sided double-density disks.
Re:Really Atari ST? by CWuestefeld on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @06:52PM (#24560939)
I seem to recall having a program called "Twister" that could format disks like this.