Can you please not do this again? I appreciate https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24548161, but vandalism is not a good way to pass the time. Not arson either.
You did the same thing in other threads today too (e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24544124). We ban accounts that do this, or at a minimum rate limit them. I'm not going to do those things right now, but if you do it again we'll have to.
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24547322.
You're a good HN user and the only thing that's needed here is a bit more mindfulness. I like the 'arson' analogy for this sort of thing, except it's the wrong word since it implies intent. The right analogy is not arson, but negligence, i.e. playing with fire for fun or what have you, but then it burns down the building.
There's nothing intrinsically wrong with this thread. It's perfectly good watercooler conversation. That's part of the original intention for HN (let me dig up an old pg link...ah yes: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8314). We all enjoy talking smack with coworkers or friends—same way one might argue about whether so-and-so is a good athlete or actor or whatever. On that level, what you did wasn't wrong at all, it's perfectly fine and good fun.
The issue is just that this particular watercooler gets broadcasted to millions of people, which suddenly makes for completely different dynamics. For example, the person you're talking about may well read the thread, which may sour them on HN and make them less likely to participate here, which would impoverish the site for all of us. That doesn't mean you shouldn't ever post criticism, but it should be alloyed with respect, and if the thread starts to turn into a cage match, you should do something to try to walk it back. (By "you" I don't mean you personally, but all of us.)
The biggest issue, though, are the feedback loops that happen when you're no longer talking to a couple people you already have good connections with, but an entire crowd of people who you have zero connections with. Your comments are guaranteed to get interpreted in ways that you not only didn't intend, but would find horrifying and would never dream of meaning. A lot of dark stuff flows in that way. Then people read it and feel licensed to start doing the same and worse—why not, if that's the kind of place this is? This is how internet forums decay, and the decay is exponential, so we have to be proactive about not letting that happen. That also is one of the founding intentions of HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html.
Unfortunately, this does mean we need to have more restrained conversation than would be most enjoyable in a small group. People instinctively do this when talking to large groups, but HN is a large group that feels like a small group, so those instincts don't kick in. And of course it's also one of the best things about HN that it feels like a small group.
Past comments about this, if anyone wants a fuller picture:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21633967
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15378909
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9378899
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7906377
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7742471
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
He has designed a programming language, so it seems fair to assume he'd have an understanding of programming language design.
Hasn't everybody and their mums/dads by now?
And even so, is that language succesful - to the extend that it means his ideas are more relevant that Rust's designers?
It's just a concept implementation at the moment, not a real industry / production / community language.
Johnathan Blow is a game designer, though.
At the end of the day he's someone who do write software for a living since decades, and has strong opinions and expectations. And he's using this to create the tools he wants to have.
Regardless of that, this is not a discussion about compilers or compiler design/programming, but rather about PL design, which are two different areas and disciplines.
The problem is that, ultimately, he's effectively throwing rocks from a glass house, but he denies us the rocks to throw back.
I just can't take him seriously.
Imagine I had a startup and kept on posting about how amazing my product was and how everybody was going to find it revolutionary, and maybe I even shared a few streams of me using it, but I didn't release. And this continued for like, 6 years. Wouldn't you get a little suspicious? Even if I was running a closed beta. Even if I had a proven track record.
Writing a language and keeping it locked up while you perfect it just isn't a great model of development. Languages are not just the compiler and the corresponding features. They're tooling and infrastructure. They're libraries. They're communities. It may be wonderful to work sans the usual politics of open source, but you're not gonna end up making a language that people use.
And maybe that's not jblow's goal. Maybe he just wants a language for himself. Well, good for him. But that seems a little sad. Programming languages are some of the most generous, wonderful gifts to the CS world. If I were him, I'd hate to see my language die with me.
It's a simple matter of put up or shut up.
He streams so much of his development work on the compiler that a determined party could probably reproduce it by just copying the text from his text editor. He streams so much of his game development using the compiler that it obviously and unambiguously works - and so long as you know all the idiosyncrasies of the language (a big caveat) works reasonably well.
He has put up, just not in the medium that you would prefer. You have not, so perhaps you should take the second half of your advice.
But, let's say he does have a working compiler. It's very probable that he does. Why doesn't he release it, then?
Well you see, the only way it's possible to really effectively criticize a programming language is to use it. By not releasing the compiler, he avoids real criticism.
So, no, I don't take him seriously on PL design. At best, he's scared of criticism, but wants to be able to criticize others. At worst, he's a fraud.
However I don't think there is any need to suggest he's a "fraud", the language is "fantasy" or faked for the stream. I also don't think that there is any need for him to release the compiler.
Have you considered that Jai is just a hobby project? Many programmers choose writing a programming language as a hobby project so why shouldn't he? Releasing a compiler to the public and having everyone demand that he also maintains it for every corner case they have is a lot less fun than just working on it for your own scope and showing it off/discussing it in your stream.
But they've got something his language doesn't.
I’m a bit shocked at your attitude with this. Your conviction is unnerving. The existence of jai doesn’t prevent the existence of Rust or other languages.
Creating a Python script that makes it look like you have an actual compiler is harder than you think it is.
> At best, he's scared of criticism, but wants to be able to criticize others. At worst, he's a fraud.
I wouldn't say he is scared of criticism, more like he is not yet at the state that he wants to accept criticism. I wouldn't want people to comment on my half-finished projects too, but this doesn't mean I can't say that something else couldn't be better.
I really doubt this. The amount of effort and acting that would need to go into being able to script in advance the sort of mistakes you make when programming would be astronomic. You would have to never make a typo when you weren't supposed to, always make a typo when you are, somehow deal with the fact that when you get stuck you need to be able to respond to audience feedback, and so on and so forth. (Oh, and interactive 3d programs not just text to a terminal).
That's a lot harder than making a programming language.
> Why doesn't he release it, then?
Because he doesn't think public feedback would be helpful at this time. Because he wants to release software that he can take pride in instead of a alpha level programming language. Because that's what he is used to from game development. Because he feels like it. Etc. Why does it matter? You aren't entitled to it.
I'm not entitled to shit, but he's also not entitled to a platform. He's a game designer. He's released games. If he wants to talk about games design, I'm all ears.
He _does_ take feedback from the public. That is, from people who take him seriously and participate in the conversation.
The compiler _is_ released in a closed beta. You could be a part of that if you were a productive voice in his language design discussions.
Instead, you're condescending:
> I can make a python script that prints out stuff while I'm streaming, too. He hasn't demonstrated squat.
> He's a game designer. He's released games. If he wants to talk about games design, I'm all ears.
Why would _anyone_ want to hear your ideas on their language if you believe these statements?
He's provided hours and hours of discussion on Jai and language design, explained most decisions he's taken and changes he's made since the inception of the language, documented the language's journey, _paid_ for people to work on the language, and we get to read "he could be faking it?" Yeah, he faked compiling programs with literal input from Twitch chat. The guy's a magician, not a programmer.
If you don't like his ideas (or him) just ignore them. No one's forcing you to listen.
Why do you think it's vaporware?
Aside from some syntax around function prototypes, it's really not, unless you are counting "people tend to use certain things less often" as how you're counting that difference.
You seem to have a problem with the fact he criticises other languages. Would you also treat someone who isn't currently designing a language with the same harshness if they also criticised a language the way Jonathan Blow does?
His opinions and views on PL design are still up to scrutiny, so it's not a glass house like you claim. PL design is not compiler writing. You're free to implement all his ideas and write a Jai compiler yourself if you need a proper compiler in your hands to properly criticise the language.
And frankly, the only thing mentioned on this thread about "80% features" is not as controversial as you're making it. Nobody here is claiming it as revolutionary or game-changing, so even if you're right, your posts are a bit uncalled for.