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Re:Boeing whistle-blower says proposed 737 Max fixes aren't ... by tzs on Monday September 21, 2020 @10:59AM (#24544213)
Question: my understanding is that the purpose of MCAS is to make the 737 MAX behave very similar to prior 737s in some unusual flight situations. There are two main reasons for this:

(1) Existing 737 pilots would not need to be recertified for the MAX. They would just need to read a short document that updated the procedure for handling runaway trim.

This would make the plane more attractive to airlines because it meant not having to pay for expensive recertification of pilots, and

(2) The plane itself would not need to be certified as a new aircraft type. The requirements for certifying new tapes change over the years, and older planes like the 737 would not meet today's requirements. By making it fly similar enough to the existing 737s, it could be classified as a variant on the existing model and be grandfathered in on the old certification.

Certifying a new type is very expensive and takes a long time.

My question is this: how long does the MAX have to be grounded before the costs of it not being service end up more than (1) the costs of recertifying pilots, and (2) the costs of making the other design changes that would be needed to certifying as a new type under current rules and then getting it certified?

Re:Boeing whistle-blower says proposed 737 Max fixes aren't ... by Animats on Monday September 21, 2020 @03:18PM (#24547306)
By now, it would have been cheaper to put in a proper triple or quad redundant flight control system and have pilots retrain for the type than to ground the fleet and lose orders.

The bad decisions that led to this are well known. Southwest Air has a business model based on having only one type of aircraft, the Boeing 737. They insisted that the 737 Max behave exactly like the other 737 models, and not require that pilots be trained and rated for two different aircraft. So Boeing tried to make Southwest happy.

A deeper bad decision is that Boeing doesn't have a 737 replacement. The original 737 is from the 1970s. By now, Boeing should have had a new plane out in that size range. Airbus does. COMAC is coming out with one, if it works well. But Boeing guessed wrong on the sizes of aircraft airlines would want. They thought the future was widebody, not mailing tubes full of seats. The 767, 777, and 787 are all widebodies. So, of course, was the 747. The 757 was a great airplane for passengers and pilots that airlines didn't want because it cost more and used more fuel. So Boeing had a huge lineup of widebodies, and no good competitor for the Airbus narrow-body options.

Hence the 737 MAX, a 737 with engines too big for the airframe and a software kludge to compensate for that.

Re:Boeing whistle-blower says proposed 737 Max fixes aren't ... by phkahler on Monday September 21, 2020 @12:39PM (#24545461)
>> My question is this: how long does the MAX have to be grounded before the costs of it not being service end up more than (1) the costs of recertifying pilots, and (2) the costs of making the other design changes that would be needed to certifying as a new type...

Not sure how long, but they passed that point a long time ago. From what I've read, one of the goals was to not require pilot training on the new plane, and that is already going to be required now.

Re:Boeing whistle-blower says proposed 737 Max fixes aren't ... by V_Terranova_Jr on Monday September 21, 2020 @11:13AM (#24544375)
To answer this, you'd need to compute the costs of the up-front engineering associated with trying to re-certify as a new type, and also the costs of the modifications. Additionally, there's always negotiation in the certification process: how will the manufacturer substantiate compliance, and if they can't, can they convince the regulator that the regulator's intent has been "met" within some acceptable level of risk? That can't be rigorously computed until the dialog with regulators takes place.

I don't know that Boeing has computed likely values of such costs, and that if they did, that they would allow them to be publicly known. Moreover, Boeing would probably focus on their worst-case numbers to justify to everyone why the only viable path is to minimally modify the design.

Re:Boeing whistle-blower says proposed 737 Max fixes aren't ... by cameldrv on Monday September 21, 2020 @09:19PM (#24549963)
It's not just to make the 737MAX behave similarly to the 737NG. The 737MAX has objectively bad handling at high AoA due to the engine positioning. Once you're at high AoA, it doesn't have good static stability, and has too much of a tendency to pitch up further into a stall.

The cause of this though is as you say, the desire to make the 737MAX be on the same type certificate as the NG rather than do a clean sheet design.

Obviously in hindsight, Boeing would have been better off with the clean sheet design. At this point though, I think either they have to get the MAX recertified or they go bankrupt. They could potentially be bailed out by the government and a clean sheet design started, but even the bailed out company would be a shell of its former self with no narrowbody aircraft to sell.

I think you'll see Boeing get the MAX recertified or die trying.

Re:Boeing whistle-blower says proposed 737 Max fixes aren't ... by comeonseriously on Monday September 21, 2020 @02:36PM (#24546852)
> My question is this: how long does the MAX have to be grounded before the costs of it not being service end up more than (1) the costs of recertifying pilots, and (2) the costs of making the other design changes that would be needed to certifying as a new type under current rules and then getting it certified?

This was the gamble that management took. Hopefully, they still get their bonuses. (/s)

Re:Boeing whistle-blower says proposed 737 Max fixes aren't ... by jacquesm on Monday September 21, 2020 @12:11PM (#24545064)
Unusual to mean 'typically within minutes of take-off'.
Re:Boeing whistle-blower says proposed 737 Max fixes aren't ... by tzs on Monday September 21, 2020 @01:29PM (#24546095)
MCAS does not typically activate at all. It only activates when the flight control systems think the plane is nearing a stall, the flaps are up, and the autopilot is off. Most commercial flights should not come near conditions triggering an MCAS activation.

It activated in the two crashed flights (and the earlier flight by one of those same planes) because of bad data from an AOA sensor leading the flight control systems to think the plane was about to stall.

Re:Boeing whistle-blower says proposed 737 Max fixes aren't ... by linuxftw on Monday September 21, 2020 @02:49PM (#24546976)
> MCAS does not typically activate at all.

You don't have that data, and the FAA did not release the data. I looked for this information specifically in their report, they did not report this data whatsoever.

So, making ANY statement about the rate of activation is pure speculation, and it's merely a Boeing talking-point.

Re:Boeing whistle-blower says proposed 737 Max fixes aren't ... by cameldrv on Monday September 21, 2020 @09:23PM (#24549986)
We know that it has false-activated at least 3 times, and each time has been a few minutes after takeoff.

This is because if the sensor fails on the ground, MCAS will always activate a few minutes into the flight, when the flaps are retracted, because the rule that activates it is disabled when the flaps are down.

Re:Boeing whistle-blower says proposed 737 Max fixes aren't ... by VBprogrammer on Monday September 21, 2020 @04:09PM (#24547862)
The circumstances under which the MCAS system are precisely described. Are you disputing that those circumstances are unusual in commercial flights?
Re:Boeing whistle-blower says proposed 737 Max fixes aren't ... by linuxftw on Monday September 21, 2020 @06:37PM (#24549197)
There's no need to speculate. The FAA should be proving these statements. "Unusual" is an empty phrase when you're talking about millions of flight hours. Is it 1/100 flights unusual? 1/10 million flights unusual?

The FAA can and should have obtained data on the activations of MCAS from the world wide fleet, and also compare on other similar aircraft (other 737s) how often MCAS activation conditions would have been met.

Re:Boeing whistle-blower says proposed 737 Max fixes aren't ... by jacquesm on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @02:41AM (#24551605)
I suspect that is because that would really blow up. It would show how many 'near misses' (thanks, George Carlin) there were and that number is likely a lot higher than the number of crashes.

Keep in mind that without that data we are all focused on the two times MCAS led to crashes, we are all in the dark how widespread the problem really was and once that data is out in the open the FAA's reputation (or what is left of it) will be further down the drain.

Re:Boeing whistle-blower says proposed 737 Max fixes aren't ... by VBprogrammer on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @06:49AM (#24552992)
Getting into the region of flight where MCAS operates by design on a commercial flight is already embarrassingly sloppy flying. The number of sick bags required on the flight would be a fair proxy.

Unless we are talking about the number of times MCAS activated outside of its design criteria but didn't result in a crash. For example, as is presumed to have happened on the flight before the Lion air accident.

Re:Boeing whistle-blower says proposed 737 Max fixes aren't ... by jacquesm on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @06:55AM (#24553025)
> Unless we are talking about the number of times MCAS activated outside of its design criteria but didn't result in a crash.

Yes, that was what I had in mind. You can bet that on every plane that did not have the secondary input to the MCAS system this happened. Two crashes are the very ugly tip of a much larger iceberg and the FAA has a vested interest in keeping that iceberg submerged.

Re:Boeing whistle-blower says proposed 737 Max fixes aren't ... by linuxftw on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @05:01PM (#24559839)
> Getting into the region of flight where MCAS operates by design on a commercial flight is already embarrassingly sloppy flying.

You assume. If we had the data, we'd know how often the 737 MAX, which has different flight characteristics than other aircraft, was actually in those conditions.

Re:Boeing whistle-blower says proposed 737 Max fixes aren't ... by VBprogrammer on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @06:21AM (#24565234)
In the same way in which one assumes pigs don't fly. You seem to be in the belief that 737 Max aircraft are uniquely predisposed to being hand flown around the sky on the edge of the stall while in the clean configuration and are expecting evidence of the contrary to be provided to you.
Re:Boeing whistle-blower says proposed 737 Max fixes aren't ... by linuxftw on Thursday September 24, 2020 @09:33AM (#24578441)
> expecting evidence of the contrary to be provided to you.

I'm expecting evidence to confirm the assumptions of the system. I'm assuming any and all available data would be gathered and analyzed. I assume the MCAS system from top to bottom is riddled with bugs and flaws, designed by committee rather than engineers. There's no reason to trust any line of reasoning from Boeing on this matter, they've already demonstrated their incompetence and are not trustworthy.

You seem to not want the FAA to verify the claims of the system with data. I don't know why that would be undesirable. Even if they only confirm what is being stated about MCAS activation, that data would be valuable and demonstrate that the FAA has at least the competence to gather the data. Publishing the raw data along with their conclusions would allow the public to verify their competence at drawing conclusions.

Re:Boeing whistle-blower says proposed 737 Max fixes aren't ... by jacquesm on Monday September 21, 2020 @02:08PM (#24546530)
Whether it didn't have to or not is immaterial, it did activate, and did so within minutes after take-off. If it was rare then we would not have had any crashes at all.
Re:Boeing whistle-blower says proposed 737 Max fixes aren't ... by KingOfCoders on Monday September 21, 2020 @01:35PM (#24546164)
Because AOA sensors > 1 (2?) was an option but not in the base model.
Re:Boeing whistle-blower says proposed 737 Max fixes aren't ... by comeonseriously on Monday September 21, 2020 @02:39PM (#24546886)
Good grief, what is Boeing, the mafia? "Nice airplane ya got there. Should would hate for something to happen to it."
Re:Boeing whistle-blower says proposed 737 Max fixes aren't ... by VBprogrammer on Monday September 21, 2020 @04:05PM (#24547823)
The parent is incorrect. They all have 2 AoA sensors. The option was a "AoA disagree" warning. It's probable that given the wide variety of warnings the pilots were experiencing in both instances it would have made little difference.
Re:Boeing whistle-blower says proposed 737 Max fixes aren't ... by KingOfCoders on Monday September 21, 2020 @11:41PM (#24550610)
Thanks, I wasn't sure "(2?)".