News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:I suspect many task deadlines are designed to force engin... by matheusmoreira on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @04:29PM (#24497404)
Why can't engineers simply tell managers that it can't be done by the specified deadline? Why do managers even ask this question if they're gonna ignore the answer and impose an impossible deadline anyway?

It looks like they're assuming we're all lazy. They think the job isn't that hard. A fundamental lack of respect.

Re:I suspect many task deadlines are designed to force engin... by lhorie on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @04:59PM (#24497831)
> Why can't engineers simply tell managers that it can't be done by the specified deadline

They can. I've had a time where a project manager came by no less than 3 times asking me to re-estimate the same project, tweaked ever so slightly each time. Turned out that they had made an impossible promise to the client. Upon learning that, I just said, listen that can't be done within that budget, end of story. You have to go reduce the scope. In the end, they had to go back, loop in the account manager and have the awkward conversation with the client.

Re:I suspect many task deadlines are designed to force engin... by drdeadringer on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @04:37PM (#24497539)
Perhaps some managers think they are a clever Cpt Kirk who's gotten wise to their Scotty's miracle-worker tactics, even though they're a manager with an honest Geordi La Forge.

No offence to Geordi La Forge.

Re:I suspect many task deadlines are designed to force engin... by blibble on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @04:54PM (#24497761)
Re:I suspect many task deadlines are designed to force engin... by TeMPOraL on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @05:06PM (#24497913)
Related, from the newest member of Star Trek family:

https://youtu.be/latWmQtm8fw?t=22

In your estimating, remember to always add buffer time.

Re:I suspect many task deadlines are designed to force engin... by watwut on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @04:45PM (#24497655)
Because in majority of the case engineers after manage to hit the deadline. That is managerial experience. What management learns over time is that engineers say it is impossible but if you insist they will then do it.

It is by trading quality pretty often, but that often is exactly trade off managers want. It is often by trading future productivity - engineers burning out or at least having drop after deadline.

Re:I suspect many task deadlines are designed to force engin... by matheusmoreira on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @04:54PM (#24497771)
> It is often by trading future productivity - engineers burning out or at least having drop after deadline.

Future productivity? If engineers are burning out in an attempt to meet otherwise impossible deadlines, it means they're being placed under enough stress that it's threatening their mental and possibly physical health. Is employee health really something that can be traded away?

Re:I suspect many task deadlines are designed to force engin... by TeMPOraL on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @05:13PM (#24498002)
> Is employee health really something that can be traded away?

In theory? No. In practice? Very much yes.

Health (particularly mental well-being) isn't readily and reliably quantifiable. As a manager, you may think your subordinate is happy and productive all the way up to the point they hand you their resignation letter. Meanwhile, employees have every reason to pretend everything is OK up to the very moment they secure a new job elsewhere. And to the extent they're becoming less productive due to burnout, most software jobs has a lot of slack in it - between high variance in problem solving and plenty of bullshit tasks to juggle, someone working at 10% of their normal capacity can stay unnoticed for a while.

With no good feedback being available, it's hard to see you're putting too much pressure on your employees, particularly if you don't look for it (whether because you're too busy or just don't care).

Re:I suspect many task deadlines are designed to force engin... by matheusmoreira on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @05:28PM (#24498175)
> Health (particularly mental well-being) isn't readily and reliably quantifiable.

There are resources which may help. Here's an article that's specific to stress:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6345505/

> As a manager, you may think your subordinate is happy and productive all the way up to the point they hand you their resignation letter.

This is the same problem we have with depression and suicide. The answer is to actively look for it.

> Meanwhile, employees have every reason to pretend everything is OK up to the very moment they secure a new job elsewhere.

An evaluation of a person's mental health produces medical information which should of course be confidential. People will not open up if they think this information will be shared with others, especially their bosses or colleagues.

> And to the extent they're becoming less productive due to burnout, most software jobs has a lot of slack in it - between high variance in problem solving and plenty of bullshit tasks to juggle, someone working at 10% of their normal capacity can stay unnoticed for a while.

Many diseases also have a subclinical phase where they show few or no symptoms. This is actually a good thing since it allows you to intervene before a complication manifests itself. The answer is to actively look for them.

> it's hard to see you're putting too much pressure on your employees, particularly if you don't look for it (whether because you're too busy or just don't care).

Hard, but not impossible. The answers won't be found if the people responsible aren't looking for them. If managers are too busy, maybe they should make the time. If they don't care, they should straight up be fired for gross negligence.

Re:I suspect many task deadlines are designed to force engin... by kelnos on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @06:36PM (#24498815)
> An evaluation of a person's mental health produces medical information which should of course be confidential. People will not open up if they think this information will be shared with others, especially their bosses or colleagues.

How would this information be useful if it's not shared with the boss?

Regardless, I don't think the biggest issue is people are afraid that the information will be shared, but that there's a stigma around being associated with a mental health issue that causes lower productivity in the workplace. Employees are more likely to keep that kind of thing a secret because they likely believe knowledge of it will make it harder to get raises and promotions.

Re:I suspect many task deadlines are designed to force engin... by matheusmoreira on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @07:03PM (#24499075)
> How would this information be useful if it's not shared with the boss?

Indirection and anonymization. The details of each individual aren't supposed to be shared but a healthcare professional can recommend changes to the manager that if implemented would promote a healthier workplace. They can point out that the whole workplace is stressful and talk to the managers about how they can improve that. Hopefully deadlines will be addressed.

There's an entire medical specialty devoted to this: occupational medicine.

> Employees are more likely to keep that kind of thing a secret because they likely believe knowledge of it will make it harder to get raises and promotions.

Unreasonable deadlines are likely to stress entire groups of people, not single individuals. It's worth addressing as an issue affecting the collective workforce.

Re:I suspect many task deadlines are designed to force engin... by watwut on Thursday September 17, 2020 @02:41AM (#24501829)
> Is employee health really something that can be traded away?

Practically yes. Not necessary because management are all sociopaths and narcissists (some are). What management see is well performing motivated employee that does not complain. People are expected to not talk about about them being tired, about their mental issues and put themselves at disadvantage if they show weakness.

Employees in order to look good and for the sake of own ego, dont admit they are at limit. The ego thing is big co-reason, that is what prevents employee from taking action. (And yes employee often has that option.)

When employee breaks and stops performing, he is kept around for the sake of old glory for a while. Then he is either replaced or hidden in one of those sleepy corporate departments full of considered loosers. The employee is then blamed for consequences of break down.

Re:I suspect many task deadlines are designed to force engin... by NortySpock on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @05:07PM (#24497933)
Yeah, you just hire a new employee.
Re:I suspect many task deadlines are designed to force engin... by matheusmoreira on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @06:02PM (#24498515)
This is sarcasm, right?
Re:I suspect many task deadlines are designed to force engin... by NortySpock on Thursday September 17, 2020 @12:16AM (#24501133)
I wish.
Re:I suspect many task deadlines are designed to force engin... by PragmaticPulp on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @04:57PM (#24497805)
Managers don't operate like this at well-run companies.

Any remotely healthy team will perform estimation and scoping as a discussion with the developers involved. The author of this post sounds like he has worked at an extremely dysfunctional company, not a company that understands how to develop software.

This idea that managers are universally incompetent just isn't true. The best thing you can do is refuse to support incompetent managers. Change teams or change jobs if you must. There are many, many great managers out there who won't try to pull nonsense like this.

Re:I suspect many task deadlines are designed to force engin... by Avtomatk on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @08:30PM (#24499799)
I also noticed that the author is in a bias, this is not a problem of the "software companies", this is a problem of "some software companies" that have a very bad administration, lack of experience in the industry or who intend to apply a disguised labor exploitation