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Re:PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders pro... by dalbasal on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @11:30AM (#24409379)
This is tangential..

As a European, I feel that we are too disconnected from this affair. Just as with the Ukrainian civil war and Crimean annexation, a big part of this conflict is a conservative, repressive, Russia/Putin sponsored regime at odds with a population that identifies more with European/EU values... especially younger people.

Russia see the dignity, prosperity and freedom of several nations as trivial relative to their "vital concern" of having a buffer between them and "The West."

I'm not saying that we can or should escalate recklessly vis-a-vis Russia. I am saying that they are our neighbors too, not just Russia's. We have our interests too, and more importantly our solidarity. The Lukashenko regime is anachronistic, brutal and failed.

This is not a foreign affair.

I understand and even sympathize with Putin's concerns on encroachment. He lays them out clearly enough. I will also admit that mistakes have been made, and the the US played its hand too aggressively in the 1990s. I also think that the EU (and NATO, if the US is willing) should negotiate a peace treaty that addresses these. I also genuinely believe this is possible.

For that to happen though, we need to take a much firmer stance. We need to be as interested in our neighbors as Russia is. The whole premise of the EU is peace and sovereignty. Those values need to be represented here.

Ukraine was abused because of their desire to join the EU, and we treated it as above our paygrade. Now, Russia is openly propping up Lukashenko. Next year it will be Lithuania, Estonia. Putin might decide to intervene on behalf of Victor Orban. We're in this one way or another.

Re:PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders pro... by odshoifsdhfs on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @11:45AM (#24409518)
Ukraine yes, Belarus youth don't seem to align with EU that much. They just want a freaking democratic country. Most favour Russian values over EU ones.

source: Current and previous gfs were Belarrusian and we had these discussions a lot (both before and after this whole thing)

edit: And both parents of both women voted for lukashenko btw, as well as some of their friends (not saying he won or anything, but it isn't also like 100% are opposed to him)

Re:PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders pro... by kazagistar on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @11:50AM (#24409576)
I'm still not even sure what Russian values even means.
Re:PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders pro... by odshoifsdhfs on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @12:10PM (#24409788)
Whatever it means if you don't use the word 'values', basically they identify more with Russia than EU. The gp mentioned that they identify with EU values, and thus I used the same word.
Re:PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders pro... by dalbasal on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @12:58PM (#24410292)
I was probably being too casual with the term. I meant it in terms of identity, especially in politically adjacent ways.
Re:PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders pro... by brabel on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @12:35PM (#24410065)
It's very similar to the American values of the 1950's.
Re:PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders pro... by dalbasal on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @12:26PM (#24409974)
Conflicts with what I've heard from Belarusians, but possibly a bias based on where those guys live (here in Ireland).

That said, I don't think it really matters what how the average Belarusian sees it. Russia (specifically Putin, and probably many of his generation) sees a democratic revolution as 1989 stuff, and as a weakening of their "buffer."

Nothing is ever 100% but I think it's likely that most want Lukashenko gone. We can't know for sure without a free election. That's the point.

As I said, I do think mistakes were made in the past. Ukraine's simultaneous moves towards NATO and the EU were a bad idea, for world peace. That did not justify Russian intervention though, and it does not justify it now. It may even be for the best if the US stays at arms length. The EU, imo, should not. This concerns our interests and security just as much as it concerns Russia's.

Re:PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders pro... by odshoifsdhfs on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @12:43PM (#24410143)
Yes, in general the ones that left are more pro EU than russia (though the ones that left for Moscow are more pro Russia).

And I agree that EU should put more pressure on the whole subject. I see the eastern countries like Lithuania, Poland and Latvia trying to make waves/raise concerns, but central and western Europe not so much (ask a Portuguese where Belarus is, and he won't know) and are more invested in the BLM issues than what is happening at the EU borders (in Portugal, most don't event know what is going on there when I talk with them.

I wish all the best to the belarussian people, and they have shown to the world their desire but also their alues by their way of correctly and peacefully way to protest and demand change. I hope it is not for nothing.

Re:PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders pro... by dalbasal on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @01:01PM (#24410316)
"are more invested in the BLM issues than what is happening at the EU borders"

Very frustrating. I believe in solidarity, and I sympathize with US causes as well. But, Belarus is in need of our solidarity. I'm not sure americans even noticed it.

Re:PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders pro... by qaq on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @11:36AM (#24409440)
"Ukrainian civil war" russian propaganda is doing it's job well
Re:PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders pro... by nur0n on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @12:07PM (#24409758)
Vice made a mind-blowing series on this if anyone wants to see with their own eyes: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLw613M86o5o7a0FGlPRdt...
Re:PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders pro... by YarickR2 on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @12:23PM (#24409937)
"Russia bad" western propaganda does it's job even better
Re:PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders pro... by helge9210 on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @01:20PM (#24410512)
>Russia-Ukraine war and Crimean occupation

Here, fixed that for you.