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Re:Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life by blhack on Sunday September 06, 2020 @12:54PM (#24392703)
> I can't help but imagine how different it would be if the US and EU/Britain (as leads) would have strongly denounced their approach.

What? What could the US have done beyond what we did other than all out war? The US response to this was very harsh.

We undid 50 years of diplomacy with China, and have started building a sortof SEA equivalent to NATO.

Chinese/American relations have probably never been as unfriendly as they are right now, and Hong Kong is a major part of that. Seriously I don’t know what the next step would be that wasn’t a de facto, weapons-hot war.

Re:Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life by magicsmoke on Sunday September 06, 2020 @12:57PM (#24392731)
I think the dissonance over the US not doing enough is that if the US pulled these moves a decade or two ago, China would have blinked. China not blinking doesn't mean the US isn't doing enough. It means we're living in a world where China doesn't blink anymore. America's absolute influence might still be the same, but its relative influence has fallen.
Re:Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life by ianai on Sunday September 06, 2020 @01:43PM (#24393113)
Right or wrong, I suggest you and others go back to interviews of Kissinger about why he pushed to open the world to China the way the US did. It was essentially do it on our terms now or theirs for ever after. Not that it was right, but it is informative.
Re:Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life by thewarrior on Sunday September 06, 2020 @01:53PM (#24393190)
Couldn’t find it can you share a link ?
Re:Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life by ianai on Friday September 11, 2020 @12:11PM (#24444282)
Personally I watched an old episode of “Firing Line” on amazon prime with him and Ariana Huffington on it. Ariana was arguing against trade with China.

Edit-might be this one: https://youtu.be/U4bBftiRo2Q

Re:Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life by dirtyid on Sunday September 06, 2020 @02:20PM (#24393440)
China doesn't compromise on sovereignty issues, period. If US pulled this 20 years ago, China wouldn't have cooperated on bailing the west out of 08 GFC. Also 20 years ago US bombed Chinese embassy in Belgrade a few years after 3rd Taiwan Strait crisis. That would have been a very different timeline.
Re:Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life by hker on Sunday September 06, 2020 @03:34PM (#24394021)
> China doesn't compromise on sovereignty issues, period.

Except when it does, quietly accepting losing Vladivostok to Russia (Chinese [1] Google translate [2]). Vladivostok was lost during the same era Hong Kong was lost.

[1] https://www.rfi.fr/tw/中國/20200703-俄羅斯微博高調慶祝海參崴建城160周年-網民怒批-官...

[2] https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https...

Re:Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life by dirtyid on Sunday September 06, 2020 @04:15PM (#24394317)
China = modern CCP

Vladivostok was never part of any inherited territory dispute which CCP inherited from ROC who inherited from Qin. Settling border disputes is not analogous to ceding sovereignty, i.e. CCP has no issues settling 12/14 border disputes, most with more Chinese land concessions. But when it comes to core sovereignty issues like Tibet, XJ, HK, Taiwan, part of the century of humiliation narrative hole CCP has dug itself into, they do not compromise on or at least have sunk too much political legitimacy in the last 50 years to ever renege on. Historic exceptions being Mongolia and 11dash down to 9dash in the 50s, when CCP was an infant. Contemporary loose end is pretty much Arunachal Pradesh which CCP is willing to package swap for Aksai China with India which will also resolve Bhutan border.

Re:Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life by souterrain on Sunday September 06, 2020 @01:08PM (#24392828)
This is remarkably confusing to read on my Chinese-manufactured mobile device I bought from an American company.
Re:Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life by markvdb on Sunday September 06, 2020 @02:27PM (#24393503)
> What? What could the US have done beyond what we did other than all out war? The US response to this was very harsh.

Signing the TPP could have helped _a lot_. DT gave China _a lot_ of diplomatic leverage there, for free...

Re:Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life by mensetmanusman on Monday September 07, 2020 @06:33AM (#24398373)
Both parties were getting out of the TPP, because a deal was made that helped the rich but ‘hurt’ China.
Re:Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life by KallDrexx on Sunday September 06, 2020 @01:45PM (#24393135)
The problem is the US has done a lot (though it's not solely to blame) to propel China up on the world stage, especially in the last decade+. We have given up a lot of our world leadership duties in many aspects and China wasted no time in filling any voids that we left behind.

This isn't just a Trump thing (though he has accelerated pulling the US out of leadership positions) but it goes back to the lack of response to the Crimea annexation (and Russia's continual pushing of it's Ukrainian boundary).

China has spent the last several decades smartly becoming more diversified in what countries they depend on, while at the same time making sure the whole world was heavily reliant on themselves. Due to that no one country can do anything to keep China in check, and in normal times that would be OK. However, the world has relied on the US to form global coalitions that would work together to push back against things like this, and now that the US has made it clear it will not work with anyone else (even allies), China knows that no other country has the influence to form such a coalition. That means it doesn't even need to be coy about what it's doing (as we are seeing with Hong Kong).

So yeah, I agree that in 2019 and 2020 the US and Eu/Britain couldn't have done anything meaningful, but what's happening right now is heavily caused by the US' pulling out of the world stage leading up to it.

Re:Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life by swordsmith on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @09:00PM (#24415525)
> China knows that no other country has the influence to form such a coalition. That means it doesn't even need to be coy about what it's doing

At least now that CCP is showing its true colors, the world is more aware of its threat.

Re:Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life by bitxbitxbitcoin on Sunday September 06, 2020 @01:21PM (#24392916)
I think the onus here was more on the UK than the US because the UK was the one with an agreement with the Chinese government that was broken. I agree that the US response has already been a lot.
Re:Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life by toyg on Sunday September 06, 2020 @01:45PM (#24393138)
The UK effectively offered asylum to millions of HKers, in a move basically unprecedented after WWII, and drew a line over previous plans to coordinate on things like 5G and nuclear. What else could they have done? In a world of superpowers, the UK alone is small potatoes.
Re:Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life by andi999 on Monday September 07, 2020 @07:12AM (#24398564)
Any source for that asylum claim?
Re:Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life by toyg on Monday September 07, 2020 @08:16AM (#24398883)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53246899

Also discussed on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23701333

I am absolutely no fan of the current UK admin but on this issue I think they've done the decent thing (which surprised me, tbh).

Re:Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life by andi999 on Monday September 07, 2020 @08:56AM (#24399101)
thanks. just to clarify, it is not asylum and not yet available (but this is not criticism it is very good) https://www.gov.uk/guidance/british-nationals-overseas-in-ho... I dont know about the uk, but prob biggest diff to asylum is, that people in asylum get money/provisions while in this scheme you need to bring money (modest 6 month worth though)
Re:Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life by treeman79 on Sunday September 06, 2020 @01:23PM (#24392929)
Starting a revolution would be next step.

Goes both ways though.