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Re:PicoRio Linux RISC-V SBC is an open-source alternative to... by OJFord on Friday September 04, 2020 @07:00PM (#24379753)
I honestly didn't realise the Raspberry Pi isn't open source. Why isn't it?

The Foundation's charitable objective is education, so sure, it's not necessary, but there really seems to be no reason for it to be closed - I suppose it's just 'closed by default'?

Re:PicoRio Linux RISC-V SBC is an open-source alternative to... by hlandau on Saturday September 05, 2020 @03:21AM (#24381920)
rpi is one of the most closed SBCs there is. Even basic materials necessary to write OSes and drivers for the device, namely datasheets and register manuals for the SoC have never been published. Unlike every other SBC I'm aware of they don't even publish full schematics. The "schematics" on their website are abridged (try and find the USB ports on them).

Arguments that Broadcom is forcing their hand on this simply don't add up. It's not Broadcom that's stopping them from publishing even basic schematics of the board; that was their decision. Sure, they'd never be able to open the chip itself, but nobody is particularly asking them to (it's not like people have fabs in their garages).

Moreover it's pretty clear at this point that Broadcom is making SoCs custom-order for rpi at this point; see their original announcement on the rpi4, which makes it quite clear they were involved in the design process. Based on what I know about Broadcom's MO, it's simply not plausible that with that amount of money on the table, release of datasheets and register manuals couldn't be negotiated; it seems clear it's not a priority for rpi.org.

And as mentioned, rpi boards include vendor-lockin DRM in their binary blob boot firmware designed to prevent people from using third-party camera boards.

Not only is this unacceptable in itself, it also means rpi is actively depending on this boot firmware remaining closed, else people could easily remove this antifeature. People have been hoping for years that the firmware blobs required to boot the boards will eventually be opened, and pointed to some vague noises in this direction which were made by rpi.org years ago, but the fact that they're now relying on the fact of it being closed to enforce DRM causes me to find this increasingly unlikely.

Re:PicoRio Linux RISC-V SBC is an open-source alternative to... by avian on Saturday September 05, 2020 @04:04AM (#24382090)
> Arguments that Broadcom is forcing their hand on this simply don't add up.

I have worked with much more mundane integrated circuits where the manufacturer required you to sign an NDA before getting any kind of design support from them. One of the terms of the NDA was not publishing the schematic of the device using their product. I don't see why Broadcom wouldn't do something similar for their SoCs.

Re:PicoRio Linux RISC-V SBC is an open-source alternative to... by hlandau on Saturday September 05, 2020 @06:12AM (#24382597)
A few things.

Broadcom is notorious for demanding NDAs for their datasheets, completely pointlessly. I've also heard of companies demanding their parts be redacted on schematics if published, even more ridiculously, though as far as I know Broadcom isn't one of them (I've seen public schematics with Broadcom parts).

Still, from what I've heard of Broadcom specifically, they're pathologically secretive with their documentation unless some star customer dangles enough money in front of them. rpi.org certainly fits that description. So I don't really buy this excuse for rpi here.

In reality, I suspect it's more the fact that rpi.org was started by ex-Broadcom engineers and they brought their culture of secrecy with them.

Re:PicoRio Linux RISC-V SBC is an open-source alternative to... by avian on Saturday September 05, 2020 @08:24AM (#24383043)
These things can be completely irrational in my experience. One part I was working with had a driver upstreamed in the Linux kernel, you could buy off-the-shelf devices for cheap that had it on the PCB and I even found a company that was apparently selling a complete set of layer-by-layer die shots of that part for around $1000.

Yet the chips weren't sold by any distributor. To even just get engineering samples from the manufacturer you had to sign this draconian NDA that covered everything from software to hardware docs even remotely connected to their part. Even after signing the NDA they wouldn't disclose full datasheet for e.g. what some registers did. For some things the comments in the Linux kernel turned out to be more informative than anything we got through official channels.

But if they're the only source of parts you have to use, you have to dance by their rules. Ruin the relationship by breaching the NDA and you might just as well bury the product you spent a year developing.

Re:PicoRio Linux RISC-V SBC is an open-source alternative to... by m4rtink on Friday September 04, 2020 @07:48PM (#24380091)
Not only is the SoC and board RPi uses open hardware, it has hardware DRM in place to prevent people using custom camera modules: https://mobile.twitter.com/marcan42/status/10884725497159188...
Re:PicoRio Linux RISC-V SBC is an open-source alternative to... by ansible on Friday September 04, 2020 @07:57PM (#24380153)
If you read a little further down in that thread, Eben Upton says that it is to prevent other camera vendors from just using the ISP tuning they developed for their official camera. You can still use some other camera with a CSI-compatible interface.
Re:PicoRio Linux RISC-V SBC is an open-source alternative to... by zucker42 on Saturday September 05, 2020 @01:58AM (#24381660)
The question is why is a charity organization devoted to education using DRM for protectionism rather than taking an approach where knowledge is more freely shared.
Re:PicoRio Linux RISC-V SBC is an open-source alternative to... by justin66 on Saturday September 05, 2020 @09:41AM (#24383439)
It appears the question has been answered and you just didn't like the answer.
Re:PicoRio Linux RISC-V SBC is an open-source alternative to... by zucker42 on Saturday September 05, 2020 @04:54PM (#24386771)
I understand that they don't want other camera vendors to compete with them. What I don't understand is why they would take that stance as a charity, and what I disagree with is the implied argument that it's better for the Raspberry Pi ecosystem if the hardware is closed.
Re:PicoRio Linux RISC-V SBC is an open-source alternative to... by snvzz on Friday September 04, 2020 @08:50PM (#24380480)
That's just PR talk. DRM is not ok.
Re:PicoRio Linux RISC-V SBC is an open-source alternative to... by justin66 on Friday September 04, 2020 @10:44PM (#24380997)
Wow. Links to twitter so often serve as a reminder that twitter is horrible and people are weird and noxious.
Re:PicoRio Linux RISC-V SBC is an open-source alternative to... by inetsee on Friday September 04, 2020 @07:04PM (#24379786)
I believe it's because the Broadcom System-on-a-Chip (SOC) that the Raspberry Pi uses has one or more binary BLOBS that are required to access features on the SOC. RISC-V is an open standard; chips made based on this standard are open source.
Re:PicoRio Linux RISC-V SBC is an open-source alternative to... by mrob on Friday September 04, 2020 @07:21PM (#24379918)
The RISC-V standard allows proprietary implementations, and several proprietary implementations exist:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RISC-V#Implementations

Re:PicoRio Linux RISC-V SBC is an open-source alternative to... by kayfox on Friday September 04, 2020 @07:41PM (#24380051)
It is possible for open source replacements for those blobs to be written, but I have not heard of any serious effort in that respect.
Re:PicoRio Linux RISC-V SBC is an open-source alternative to... by floatboth on Saturday September 05, 2020 @06:46AM (#24382690)
https://github.com/librerpi/rpi-open-firmware is a pretty serious attempt at the bootloader (incl. VC4 side). As in they can boot an OS, with some limitations but still.
Re:PicoRio Linux RISC-V SBC is an open-source alternative to... by duck2 on Friday September 04, 2020 @09:36PM (#24380708)
It's just an open instruction set architecture. You can implement an open or closed source CPU on top of it.
Re:PicoRio Linux RISC-V SBC is an open-source alternative to... by PedroBatista on Friday September 04, 2020 @07:01PM (#24379765)
The Foundation doesn't make the SoCs, Broadcom does.
Re:PicoRio Linux RISC-V SBC is an open-source alternative to... by OJFord on Friday September 04, 2020 @07:44PM (#24380066)
Ah ok - I misinterpreted the scope/emphasis.

It is open to a degree:

https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/hardware/raspberry...

Re:PicoRio Linux RISC-V SBC is an open-source alternative to... by neilpanchal on Friday September 04, 2020 @07:41PM (#24380050)
Also, its not possible to write your own DSI/MIPI drivers for a phone LCD that you can buy on eBay, partly for not having the DSI/MIPI specification unless you pay upwards of thousands of dollars a year and Raspberry Pi doesn't allow access to the DSI/MIPI HAL layer - its part of the SOC which Broadcom controls.

About the only way to make a device with an LCD is to use the built-in HDMI.

Re:PicoRio Linux RISC-V SBC is an open-source alternative to... by stefan_ on Friday September 04, 2020 @08:56PM (#24380517)
Nothing they can do about the specification. There is a DSI driver in the proprietary firmware, but there is also an open-source upstream version:

https://github.com/anholt/linux/wiki/Raspberry-Pi-and-other-...

This is a theme with the RPi. They generally implement new hardware in their proprietary firmware first, for lack of skills/time to do a proper upstream job of it (or the convience of copy-pasting some vendor code), then pay someone to develop an open-source driver. For example, here is a massive 80 patch series nearing merge for the new display pipeline in the RPi 4:

https://patchwork.freedesktop.org/series/73839/

Re:PicoRio Linux RISC-V SBC is an open-source alternative to... by userbinator on Friday September 04, 2020 @10:16PM (#24380879)
partly for not having the DSI/MIPI specification unless you pay upwards of thousands of dollars a year

There is a little thing called Google... ;-)

Re:PicoRio Linux RISC-V SBC is an open-source alternative to... by ekianjo on Friday September 04, 2020 @09:23PM (#24380635)
Broadcom SoC is probably protected by a bunch of patents and/or trade secrets, which makes it impractical to open source. For example the whole boot process is a black box, which is why you have to use Raspbian and not regular Debian.
Re:PicoRio Linux RISC-V SBC is an open-source alternative to... by trasz on Saturday September 05, 2020 @03:59AM (#24382062)
Not sure about Debian, but stock FreeBSD boots just fine.
Re:PicoRio Linux RISC-V SBC is an open-source alternative to... by Alupis on Friday September 04, 2020 @09:55PM (#24380784)
That's not really true anymore.

Device Tree and other things help with this, although you do still require certain BLOB's to access the GPU and other features.

Re:PicoRio Linux RISC-V SBC is an open-source alternative to... by pabs3 on Saturday September 05, 2020 @03:16AM (#24381900)
Since the GPU starts before the CPU, you need a blob to boot the GPU before you can start open code on the CPU. There is open GPU boot firmware being worked on but it isn't ready yet and relies on GCC support for the GPU, which isn't mainlined yet and the authors don't intend to mainline. So probably RPi will need blobs to boot for the foreseeable future.

https://github.com/librerpi/rpi-open-firmware https://github.com/itszor/vc4-toolchain/issues/7

Re:PicoRio Linux RISC-V SBC is an open-source alternative to... by ekianjo on Friday September 04, 2020 @11:05PM (#24381083)
As far as I know the efforts in this direction only worked for Raspberry Pi 1, not the subsequent ones - or are there some news for later devices too?
Re:PicoRio Linux RISC-V SBC is an open-source alternative to... by paxswill on Saturday September 05, 2020 @12:10AM (#24381346)
I’ve played with this recently in setting up a shared netboot server with Debian for my pile of ARM SBCs (I really should write up that blog post...). The upstream kernel’s device trees are different from the ones supplied by the Raspberry Pi Foundation, with some slightly different names for devices, and basically no easy way to use overlays. Other than that minor obstacle, it’s perfectly doable to build up your own image with debootstrap and chroot with 100% Debian repositories (or go the easy way and download one of the prebuilt images [0]). You do still need the closed-source blobs (bootcode.bin, start.elf, fixup.dat) for boot though, which are made available in the non-free repo.

The 4’s hardware support is still being merged upstream last I heard though, so the easy way for that is still to use the Foundation’s kernel (which is what Ubuntu does, probably to also make overlays work as expected).

0: https://raspi.debian.net/

Re:PicoRio Linux RISC-V SBC is an open-source alternative to... by floatboth on Saturday September 05, 2020 @06:48AM (#24382697)
You only need boot blobs. Accessing the GPU, no. VC4 driver for the Pi3 and older is there, and V3D/VC5 for Pi4 is the only driver, AFAIK there is no proprietary driver for the Pi 4 GPU at all, only the open one.