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Re:Cloth masks do protect the wearer by waterheater on Monday August 31, 2020 @07:31PM (#24336968)
This study from 2010 is the only one I've ever seen which tests the effectiveness of masks being worn on a face:

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/153567601001500...

"The protective efficiencies were 33.3%, 11.3%, and 6.1% for the surgical, bandana, and dust masks, respectively. The N95 mask protective efficiency was 89.6%. In conclusion, the surgical mask protected the best of the three face masks tested. However, it is important to note that all three masks offer very little protection when compared to the N95, and wearing these face masks may produce a false sense of protection."

Re:Cloth masks do protect the wearer by waterheater on Monday August 31, 2020 @07:46PM (#24337058)
I'm also going to use this post to highlight how historical revisionism and censorship of opposing viewpoints is occurring regarding masking.

http://web.archive.org/web/20200625094522/https://www.oralhe...

The article is called "Why Face Masks Don’t Work: A Revealing Review", published October 18, 2016.

This is the webpage as of early July 2020: https://www.oralhealthgroup.com/features/face-masks-dont-wor...

"If you are looking for “Why Face Masks Don’t Work: A Revealing Review” by John Hardie, BDS, MSc, PhD, FRCDC, it has been removed. The content was published in 2016 and is no longer relevant in our current climate."

"No longer relevant in our current climate."

Re:Cloth masks do protect the wearer by dandelany on Monday August 31, 2020 @07:59PM (#24337142)
The original paper was asking the question: Do surgical masks provide adequate protection against disease transmission for dentists and patients in a clinical context? And their conclusion was: no.

This is an entirely separate question from: Do masks provide enough protection against disease transmission to be worth wearing/recommending in public places during a global pandemic, despite their imperfections? The answer to that, from many other studies, seems to be clearly yes. I can imagine that anti-mask folks started using this article as ammunition, due to the catchy headline ("see, this article says face masks don't work!"), and the publishers felt it was doing more harm than good and took it down for that reason.

Re:Cloth masks do protect the wearer by ketamine__ on Monday August 31, 2020 @08:23PM (#24337263)
> Do masks provide enough protection against disease transmission to be worth wearing/recommending in public places during a global pandemic, despite their imperfections? The answer to that, from many other studies, seems to be clearly yes.

A randomized trial with surgical masks during Covid-19 will be published soon. Here are some quotes and commentary:

> “All these countries recommending face masks haven’t made their decisions based on new studies,” Bundgaard said in an interview in Copenhagen.

> He says there’s evidence to suggest that the only effective face covering might be a visor, because the virus can spread through all mucous membranes, including via the eyes. He worries a cloth covering that only protects the nose and mouth provides a “false sense of security.”

> Bundgaard says the simple rules that currently exist in Denmark -- hand-washing, social distancing, self-isolating if you’re sick -- are effective because they’re easy to remember. He worries that using face masks might lead people to be “sloppy” in following the other guidelines.

> Bundgaard’s study on masks is due to be published next month. In the meantime, he says he hopes they don’t become mandatory in Denmark.

https://www.bloombergquint.com/onweb/face-mask-photo-op-adds...

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32829745/

Re:Cloth masks do protect the wearer by dandelany on Monday August 31, 2020 @09:19PM (#24337575)
It's obviously hard to critique a study that hasn't been released, but I [again] find it bizarre how the "introduction" and "conclusions" in the abstract you linked seem to be asking two separate questions.

The intro says "This trial investigates whether the use of face masks in the community will reduce wearers' risk of SARS-CoV-2 infection." (emph. mine) ie. if everyone wears masks, does my risk go down? This seems like the correct question to ask. But then the conclusion says "We will study whether a face mask protects the wearer of the mask against SARS-CoV-2 infection" which is a different question entirely!

If what we have been hearing over the past months is true (masks provide marginal protection for the wearer, but catch a significant portion of aerosol droplets & therefore protect society against the wearer) - I would expect the answer to the first question to be "yes" and the second to be "no"!

Re:Cloth masks do protect the wearer by me_me_me on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @05:18AM (#24339876)
I think we should introduce a law that surgeons should stop operating on people with masks on if said person thinks masks don't stop the spread of infected droplets.

After-all there is probably a way to cherry-pick an argument that surgeon without a mask is more accurate therefore safer.

Wearing mask is not a big inconvenience, same as not dropping trash on the street. You just need a person that is not consumed by their self importance.

I swear there will soon be people claiming that not only sun revolves around the earth but it revolves around that single person.

Re:Cloth masks do protect the wearer by ketamine__ on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @09:56AM (#24341737)
Regardless of if masks work or not there are many self-inflicted conditions like obesity, diabetes, and heart disease. Coincidentally those conditions are the reason the health system almost became overwhelmed in the US. If we want to put a litmus test on treatment it would probably effect 90% of Covid-19 hospitalizations.
Re:Cloth masks do protect the wearer by Jommi on Monday August 31, 2020 @08:35PM (#24337313)
So negative effect of masks seems to only be a social effect, that can be combatted by proper messaging and PR.

Seems like an easy problem to deal with.

Re:Cloth masks do protect the wearer by bonchicbongenre on Monday August 31, 2020 @08:56PM (#24337456)
Agree with your first sentence.

Unless you're being sarcastic (apologies if so, and no mean to offend if not), I take the opposite conclusion though, which seems borne out by reality. Public messaging and for social cohesion in service of the greater good is the hardest problem affecting any large-scale coordinated response, especially with propaganda, doublethink, and flat-out unwillingness to learn being so common. I gather that the article the previous commenter mentioned was removed so that such propagandists couldn't willingly misinterpret it to pass on to their sycophants.

Re:Cloth masks do protect the wearer by ketamine__ on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @09:52AM (#24341703)
Improper usage of any medical device can be a serious problem for the user. I don't think we should continue a therapy if it's a net negative at the margin.
Re:Cloth masks do protect the wearer by waterheater on Monday August 31, 2020 @08:12PM (#24337199)
>the publishers felt it was doing more harm than good and took it down for that reason.

Then the publishers should come out and say so by putting a tagline or disclaimer at the top of the article. Pulling the whole article to "supervise[] conduct and morals" [1] is textbook censorship.

[1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/censoring

Re:Cloth masks do protect the wearer by dandelany on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @12:25AM (#24338551)
/shrug It’s self-censorship. Publications commonly unpublish bad articles for a wide variety of reasons. Should one not supervise one’s own conduct and morals?
Re:Cloth masks do protect the wearer by misanthropian00 on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @06:13AM (#24340141)
https://www.wired.com/story/how-masks-went-from-dont-wear-to...

This is also a good article on the subject. The revisionists claim that WHO and the CDC changed their mask recommendations based on new evidence but they never actually cite the studies which presumably were published just before the policy changes. I think that may have something to do with the fact that the recommendations were not evidence based.

Re:Cloth masks do protect the wearer by ketamine__ on Monday August 31, 2020 @07:36PM (#24336990)
This randomized trial from 2015 looked at cloth masks.

https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577

> Conclusions This study is the first RCT of cloth masks, and the results caution against the use of cloth masks. This is an important finding to inform occupational health and safety. Moisture retention, reuse of cloth masks and poor filtration may result in increased risk of infection. Further research is needed to inform the widespread use of cloth masks globally. However, as a precautionary measure, cloth masks should not be recommended for HCWs, particularly in high-risk situations, and guidelines need to be updated.

Re:Cloth masks do protect the wearer by GaryNumanVevo on Monday August 31, 2020 @07:44PM (#24337045)
Important to note: This study was conducted for _health care workers_. Not the general public.

Cloth masks aren't designed to protect the wearer, rather protect everyone else around them by catching droplets / reducing nasal spray / etc. It only works if everyone 95% of people are wearing one, especially indoors.

Re:Cloth masks do protect the wearer by jlmorton on Monday August 31, 2020 @07:53PM (#24337109)
The linked article is making an assertion that cloth masks protect the wearer by reducing the viral dose, leading to many more asymptomatic cases. It is saying that mask wearing alone is enough to reduce your risk from coronavirus.

That is actually the headline from the article: "Cloth masks do protect the wearer – breathing in less coronavirus means you get less sick"

Re:Cloth masks do protect the wearer by ketamine__ on Monday August 31, 2020 @07:51PM (#24337099)
> It only works if everyone 95% of people are wearing one, especially indoors.

If this is the only RCT for cloth masks what kind of evidence is behind your claim? Do you have a source?

Re:Cloth masks do protect the wearer by misanthropian00 on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @06:20AM (#24340179)
There is no evidence that cloth masks are better at filtering out than they are at filtering in. They are not designed to be one way valves. They are pretty bad at both due to the massive amount of space between threads which virus droplets can just sail right through.

No one should be wearing cloth masks if surgical masks are available and no one should be wearing surgical masks when N95 or equiv masks are available. This cannot be repeated enough.

Re:Cloth masks do protect the wearer by mchusma on Monday August 31, 2020 @07:39PM (#24337011)
I know this is not you making this claim, but this type of thinking is what led both the CDC and WHO to mislead the public I'm masks for months.

Masks clearly work, but not perfectly. Better masks work better. Wear one if you want to reduce your risk and risk to those around you.

We knew this prior to this pandemic.

Governments and doctors should stop being so paternalistic and just tell the truth.

Re:Cloth masks do protect the wearer by gridlockd on Monday August 31, 2020 @08:31PM (#24337291)
We still do not know that cloth masks work, especially not since before the pandemic, otherwise the WHO and CDC would have recommended them.

We especially do not know whether cloth masks reduce personal risk.

None of the links given in this overly assertive article show that cloth masks work or that they reduce viral load.

All of these are plausible hypotheses and beliefs, but they are still not backed by high quality data.

Re:Cloth masks do protect the wearer by voces on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @08:49PM (#24348875)
> wearing these face masks may produce a false sense of protection

However, it is important to note that seat belts from ropes, seat belts from cotton strings, and seat belts from elastic bands offer very little protection when compared to a properly tested and fitted seat belt, and wearing these seat belts may produce a false sense of protection (resulting in no avoidance of speeding or driving too closely to the person in front of you, the best general public guidance we currently have to avoid corporal damage from car crashes).