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Re:Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city... by jcrawfordor on Monday August 31, 2020 @04:25PM (#24335559)
As a decidedly amateur historian with interest in this area, I think that claim is true on its own but also does not tell the entire story.

It is true that decentralization was viewed as a major component of nuclear survivability, particularly in the earlier part of the cold war. This was the time period during which the FEMA (today's name) crisis relocation program was being devised, for example, and the high cost and complexity of crisis relocation (which, in an earlier form, was a major motivation for the Eisenhower freeway system, to the extent that it's probably fair to say that it was the main motivation with materiel movement as a second) served to highlight the inherent vulnerability of dense cities and keep it very much in the minds of government planners. Decentralized cities had an inherent advantage to planners in that money could be saved on crisis relocation efforts. Of course the crisis relocation program was never fully implemented, but the way of thinking was fairly influential.

The federal government had an enormous role in suburbanization of US cities in many, many ways, which is actually part of what makes it hard to address this point. Support for suburbanization was not coming just (or even primarily) from FEMA, all kinds of federal agencies had a hand. Much of the urban renewal work of the 20th century took the effective form of relocating poor people to the suburbs and replacing their inner-city housing with industrial/commercial/transport, for example the Model Cities program of the late '60s. This was in part a result of the general feeling that the inner city was where poor people lived and so improving their economic situation required getting them out of it, part of it was merely the practical issue that substantially improving a dense area is a lot more expensive than razing it and build something new there. I don't know if these programs were strongly influenced by crisis planning, they probably were at least in part, but it seems unlikely that crisis planning was a much bigger influence in federal advocacy of suburbanization than the more organic trends of white flight and urban decay that came out of a set of race and class relations, in a potent combination with some simple budget and timeline considerations.

My point is that nuclear planning was a factor, but the massive suburbanization of the postwar decades originated from many factors out of which nuclear crisis planning was only one, and I'm not convinced that it was one of the bigger ones in the end. Yes, the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists very openly advocated for suburbanization of cities and that view was influential, but at the same time so much of suburbanization was motivated by a new vision of the American dream that came out of the peculiarities of post-war economics and demographics, racism, the radical popularity of the automobile (which not only enabled low-density areas but often required the destruction of high-density areas to provide freeway access to business districts), and probably at least a few other things.

Any claim that "urban sprawl is a result of x" where X isn't a list of things is probably pretty hard to defend. A complete change in not just urban planning but people's patterns of life tends to require a confluence of factors.

Re:Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city... by S_A_P on Monday August 31, 2020 @07:39PM (#24337010)
This is a really great response. I think there are a ton of both selfish and altruistic reasons for the urban sprawl that is Houston. I grew up here (Alief area) and that was the burbs when I was young. (It’s about 15-20 minutes drive from downtown) there was a 10 or so mile gap between where I lived and Sugarland. Now it all runs together. I now live due south of Katy in an unincorporated area about 40 miles away from downtown Houston. Land and housing is still relatively cheap here but it’s filling out every year.

I say that to say this- I didn’t move way out here to get away from some ethnic group or to some other insidious reason. I moved here because I have a large (blended) family and we wanted to own land. It’s a popular narrative to blame sprawl on racism or living above your means. I think the real reason is way more boring than that. Move away from a population center and things get cheaper. Gas is cheaper. Groceries are cheaper. Price per square foot is much cheaper. Those who are upper middle class can live well in the sprawl so of course they do. I have neighbors of every race religion and culture here. They all want the same thing- decent schools elbow room and some fresh air...

Re:Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city... by jcrawfordor on Monday August 31, 2020 @07:43PM (#24337034)
Right, and this is a big part of the post-war economics. After WWII a huge number of people were looking to buy homes in an unusually short span of time, and they pretty much all wanted a "typical American home" with lawn and fence. On top of this, there was a large workforce available that basically kickstarted the American homebuilding industry as we know it today, and made buying a brand-new home a very affordable and attractive option.

And what do you get when you have a huge number of people looking to buy brand-new houses? Urban sprawl, there's not really any way to avoid it.

Re:Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city... by joe_the_user on Monday August 31, 2020 @11:57PM (#24338410)
Cheap land and big house is a huge draw for sprawl.

The problem is this is a fundamentally unsustainable proposition. The US is hitting those problems now and it's not pretty. It's not just gridlock but problem that once things stabilize, maintaining sprawl costs more than maintaining a compact city[1]. The roads and the schools in the suburbs are often good only when they're new - once they age, the problem become visible (California is harbinger for the rest of sprawl land, this state has the older sprawl, remember). Poor services can cause an area of sprawl to become undesirable and then it's hard to recover - public transit is hard to add when distances are large but you can still wind-up poor people lacking vehicles in the hinterlands.

[1] https://usa.streetsblog.org/2015/03/05/sprawl-costs-the-publ...

Re:Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city... by throwaway316943 on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @06:54AM (#24340393)
It seems like there would be solutions to most of those problems. Roads are long due for a replacement but something more efficient and cost effective. Utilities are already moving towards decentralization with electricity leading the way but sanitation is on the horizon (see Bill Gates efforts). Depending on the outcome of COVID schools are going to be radically transformed. I think there’s enough energy pushing away from city centres right now to fuel a renaissance of the suburbs.
Re:Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city... by joe_the_user on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @09:16PM (#24349045)
Roads are long due for a replacement but something more efficient and cost effective.

What could that possibly be? I don't know of anything even on the horizon. Rails and steel wheels are more energy efficient but far more costly to build and maintain. Other nations use rail well by ... not having sprawl. Suburban sprawl essentially rests on the private automobile. As the gp essentially said, the draw of sprawl is a big house and a car, which can be nice 'till your whole planet is on fire and you're choking in rubble (I live in California, can you tell - But Texas will notce climate change too, if they haven't). A road is a just a flat piece of ground, it's pretty hard to find something simpler. Freeways are cheaper to build than railways. But the cost of rebuilding gets huge.

So basically, there are not solutions to these problems. We've basically hit Decline of the Roman Empire levels here. That empire took hundred of years to fall. I'm hoping things last past my lifetime.

Re:Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city... by throwaway316943 on Wednesday September 02, 2020 @07:25AM (#24352155)
Nah, you just lack imagination.
Re:Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city... by lfnoise on Monday August 31, 2020 @09:59PM (#24337811)
I grew up in Alief too, back when you had to drive past miles of farm fields to get there. We moved there because my dad, a pilot, flew out of Andrau Airpark. (Also, seeing your post history, I am a friend of Roger Linn.)
Re:Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city... by S_A_P on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @08:06AM (#24340869)
Tell Roger hey for me and I would love to beta test the next linn drum!!!!
Re:Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city... by pfraze on Monday August 31, 2020 @10:24PM (#24337950)
Houston is by far one of the most diverse areas I’ve ever visited in the US, up there with NYC.
Re:Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city... by S_A_P on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @08:05AM (#24340864)
And look at that- my cousin has joined the discussion.
Re:Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city... by pfraze on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @11:36AM (#24342931)
What up, Craig!
Re:Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city... by peterpeppers on Monday August 31, 2020 @10:46PM (#24338066)
The INTERESTING QUESTION is did the Federal Housing Administration prioritize white wealth and lives by moving them into an area less likely to get nuked by the USSR?

Also kudos for not being a racist...

But you might want to take a look at history. The US government actively encouraged urban sprawl with low-cost loans and redlining starting with Roosevelt and the New Deal.

"Beginning in 1934, the Federal Housing Administration (HOLC) included in the FHA Underwriting Handbook “residential security maps” used to help the government decide which neighborhoods would make secure investments and which should be off-limits for issuing mortgages[...] Green areas were were explicitly homogenous, lacking “a single foreigner or Negro.”

SOURCES:

- https://www.thoughtco.com/redlining-definition-4157858

- https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/how-federal-governmen...

- https://www.businessinsider.com/how-redlining-kept-black-ame...

Re:Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city... by js2 on Monday August 31, 2020 @06:59PM (#24336721)
> crisis relocation (which, in an earlier form, was a major motivation for the Eisenhower freeway system, to the extent that it's probably fair to say that it was the main motivation with materiel movement as a second)

I've heard that before, but the DOT claims evacuation was a minor factor. From https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/interstate/interstatemyths.cfm#ques...

President Eisenhower supported the Interstate System because he wanted a way of evacuating cities if the United States was attacked by an atomic bomb.

President Eisenhower’s support was based largely on civilian needs—support for economic development, improved highway safety, and congestion relief, as well as reduction of motor vehicle-related lawsuits. He understood the military value of the Interstate System, as well as its use in evacuations, but they were only part of the reason for his support.

Defense was the primary reason for the Interstate System.

The primary justifications for the Interstate System were civilian in nature. In the midst of the Cold War, the Department of Defense supported the Interstate System and Congress added the words “and Defense” to its official name in 1956 (“National System of Interstate and Defense Highways”). However, the program was so popular for its civilian benefits that the legislation would have passed even if defense had not been a factor.

Re:Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city... by jcrawfordor on Monday August 31, 2020 @07:51PM (#24337097)
Yeah, I'm really not sure about this - stories of the strange history of the Eisenhower freeway system are extremely common and there's just a surprising amount of myth around them, like the airplane landing thing that we've seen elsewhere in the thread. It's probably unnecessarily conspiratorial to think that the motivations were anything other than what was officially said (e.g. economic advantages), but I give a certain weight to evacuation as a motive because the vast majority of the efforts made towards survivability were remarkably secretive and it was common, at the time, for the government to use cover stories as justification for survivability efforts. Consider, for example, how FEMA used the FBI as a "front" for the crisis relocation program in order to deny their involvement. It's the kind of secret-keeping that seems really pointless and strange now (how much does it even matter to anyone if it's the FBI or FEMA inventorying relocation sites?), but is an artifact of the ultra-paranoid and minimally accountable atmosphere of the time. Most of these things remain pretty secretive today, not necessarily because there's some ongoing push to keep it a secret, but through the more boring mechanism of once secret, now obscure documents being hard to get declassified.

So I sort of suspect that evacuation was a bigger factor than the government admits, but that's purely speculative. Just like suburbanization there are definitely a lot of reasons the interstates happened.

Re:Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city... by pfraze on Monday August 31, 2020 @10:27PM (#24337968)
It’s really common for decisions to be made for more than one reason, even if some of those reasons are just advantages brought up during the planning discussions. I can easily see the defense motives as being one of the many factors involved in the freeway development.
Re:Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city... by jcrawfordor on Monday August 31, 2020 @10:56PM (#24338103)
Right, and if my borderline conspiracy theory that evacuation was a bigger factor than we know today is at all true, I'm not saying that the federal DOT is lying to us today or anything. If there was a considerable FEMA influence in the motivation and design of the system, staff today probably just don't know about it. A lot of this stuff happened in face-to-face conversations, a lot of the documentation was classified and by the time it hit the DECL ON it was moldering in a bankers box somewhere... the same reasons that a lot of stuff about the relocation program isn't very well known today despite it being declassified. One of the consequences of secrecy is that the whole thing is more likely to just be forgotten as decades go by and the people who were in the know cycle out. And FEMA and its precursors seemed to have a particularly weird and insular inner culture that makes them hard to talk about from a historical perspective today.
Re:Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city... by sbierwagen on Monday August 31, 2020 @09:03PM (#24337499)
I mean, you can just read the original text. Section 108(a):

>It is hereby declared to be essential to the national interest to provide for the early completion of the "National System of Interstate Highways", as authorized and designated in accordance with section 7 of the Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1944. It is the intent of the Congress that the Interstate System be completed as nearly as practicable over a thirteen-year period and that the entire System in all the States be brought to simultaneous completion. Because of its primary importance to the national defense, the name of such system is hereby changed to the "National System of Interstate and Defense Highways". Such National System of Interstate and Defense Highways is hereinafter in this Act referred to as the "Interstate System".

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/STATUTE-70/pdf/STATUTE-7...

Re:Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city... by phone8675309 on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @09:37AM (#24341579)
> Support for suburbanization was not coming just (or even primarily) from FEMA, all kinds of federal agencies had a hand.

There were also non-government actors pushing this - banks redlining the suburbs in order to achieve soft segregation in areas without formal Jim Crow laws on the books, for example.

The legacy of this is the most segregated city in the US, Milwaukee, is in the north, and a major cause was redlining.

Re:Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city... by an_opabinia on Monday August 31, 2020 @05:01PM (#24335910)
Well, nowadays, designing a city around defense would seem ridiculous.
Re:Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city... by mr_toad on Monday August 31, 2020 @11:14PM (#24338186)
It’s funny that the innermost areas of many European cities have designs that go back to the days when everyone lived behind walls.
Re:Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city... by arethuza on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @06:05AM (#24340097)
Also at least famous example in North America:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_Street#Early_years

Re:Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city... by trhway on Monday August 31, 2020 @05:08PM (#24335985)
different times, different threat models. I think we may as well see a city design emerging which would be taking into account aerial viral spread, remote work/study, etc. which would affect density, transportation, etc. Deepening stratification of society will naturally generate even higher social tension gradients which may present a potential threat to social stability, and thus it may require even more intentional measures in the future city designs to support social stability in the face of such gradients. I think we can see city designs addressing such emerging trends as autonomous delivery/transportation (which naturally plays well with the stratification), policing and public safety in general - i.e. more conductive to total surveillance, robot based policing (how about that one at Shoreline Cinema 16 or even those Starships crawling on Castro - today delivering pizza it'd politely wait for you to let him pass, yet i'm sure that while waiting it dreams about tomorrow when painted with police insignia it'd be forcing its way though the crowd by throwing tear gas and delivering taser jolts :) and making it easier for containment of protest and terrorist activity.