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Re:Don't Be a Sucker by sudosysgen on Monday August 31, 2020 @02:28PM (#24334441)
The goal of the left isn't to divide the population on gender and class, it is to make the already existing divisions apparent as that is a pre-requisite to actually fix them. Which is why leftists would call it ...-consciousness, because the goal is just to make people conscious of the already existing differences and then to heal them.

The basic idea of modern leftism is that strongest, base distinction in society is class, but that there are other existing divisions that need to be bridged before class itself can be fixed.

If it is not readily apparent to you, the US is already divided based on gender, class, and race, and the right party (really both of them) promote policies that would actually increase these gaps. They would ignore them in their rhetoric, but augment them in practice. Whereas the left augments them in their rhetoric, but seeks to minimize them in practice.

Re:Don't Be a Sucker by roenxi on Monday August 31, 2020 @03:14PM (#24334953)
> They would ignore them in their rhetoric, but augment them in practice. Whereas the left augments them in their rhetoric, but seeks to minimize them in practice.

I'm going out on a limb I suppose, but that isn't how political parties work. Outing myself as an engineer, if I wanted to increase/minimise something in practice I would start with a survey of the academic literature on times where the thing changed radically. Then I would attempt to replicate those conditions. Then I would assess the outcomes using pre-defined measures of success.

No political party works that way. Both wings of policies work near-exclusively with sounds-good-to-people-who-vote strategies. In particular, speaking cheerfully from the right, I've never seen a leftist "minimise [divides] in practice" strategy that looks like it started from a historic survey of what worked. I expect there are similar complaints about the right. I've never seen a political solution assessed for effectiveness, and most of them aren't effective.

Re:Don't Be a Sucker by AWildC182 on Monday August 31, 2020 @03:21PM (#24335021)
I would argue both sides do attempt "literature surveys" but they're often tainted by the desire to justify their goals. It turns out you can twist numbers to mean whatever you want and both sides are guilty of this to some extent, though at the moment the pants-on-fire award seems to go to the right. If taken far enough, however, one gets to the level of trying to debate truth itself and "what is objective fact" which gets hairy...
Re:Don't Be a Sucker by sudosysgen on Monday August 31, 2020 @03:16PM (#24334960)
If you read leftist literature, there are many attempts to do exactly that. It's just that in the US the left has essentially no power, it's shared between a centrist Democratic party and a right Republican party.

That being said, there are a lot of ineffective tactics in the left, because there is a lot of infighting (see the XKCD article on standards, as another commenter suggested), and very loose organization.

Re:Don't Be a Sucker by AnimalMuppet on Monday August 31, 2020 @04:17PM (#24335506)
Well, I'm not really all that concerned with what the leftists do in literature. I'm concerned with what they do in power. If we don't actually have any in power in the US, then the only answer is "no data".

(And "literature" is a pretty poor way to try to refute the claim, which is what leftists do "in practice".)

Re:Don't Be a Sucker by sudosysgen on Monday August 31, 2020 @04:33PM (#24335626)
The GP mentioned an engineering process and literature review. I answered their questions about how these problems are approached and what the process is. I think that's fairly adequate.

If you want to know what any politician will do in power, the process is to see what they are proposing, and to see what others with the same ideology do in practice in other places. If you want to know what the left would do, I suggest doing this.

Re:Don't Be a Sucker by rbecker on Monday August 31, 2020 @05:18PM (#24336067)
> a centrist Democratic party and a right Republican party.

As right-biased as the two parties are economically, someone wanting to reduce immigration still has no-one to vote for. Even Trump gave nothing but rhetoric and unpopular, ineffective clampdowns on statistically negligible immigration sources, as any graph of US yearly immigration numbers will show.

Re:Don't Be a Sucker by thinkingemote on Monday August 31, 2020 @07:20PM (#24336888)
> and then to heal them.

Not any more. The left used to be about what different people have in common. Now it's about what different people have different than others.

The first had healing. The second keeps the wounds open and festering.

Re:Don't Be a Sucker by sudosysgen on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @06:09PM (#24347725)
How did the left shift from what people have in common to what they have apart?

The left has always talked about existing divisions, ever since the late 1800s. Is making the distinction between owner and worker known not highlighting differences?

And of course, once those differences are well known, the left pushes to fix them.

Re:Don't Be a Sucker by username90 on Monday August 31, 2020 @03:01PM (#24334805)
> The goal of the left isn't to divide the population on gender and class, it is to make the already existing divisions apparent as that is a pre-requisite to actually fix them.

Republicans are officially against racism, pro black etc. So look at what people do, not what they say.

Re:Don't Be a Sucker by sudosysgen on Monday August 31, 2020 @03:04PM (#24334835)
Sure. Then look at what the left actually does, and tell me how it makes racial, class, and gender divisions worse. The democrats in the US don't qualify as leftists, as I stated above.
Re:Don't Be a Sucker by username90 on Monday August 31, 2020 @03:21PM (#24335025)
USA really need a political party that isn't 50% lawyers. No other country has such low diversity among politician backgrounds to my knowledge.
Re:Don't Be a Sucker by sudosysgen on Monday August 31, 2020 @03:28PM (#24335104)
I agree. I think some Islamic theocracies have around the same amount of diversity, though :P

Though, the wave of Justice Democrats coming from working class background such as nurses and so on is encouraging

Re:Don't Be a Sucker by AWildC182 on Monday August 31, 2020 @03:09PM (#24334882)
I think that is the point that OP is making, and though I think the overall post is rather salient there might be a better direction for them to take that argument...

Perhaps a better way to look at that particular note is while that's how the right views the left (depending on the camp) the issue within the left is the rampant infighting. Sort of like https://xkcd.com/1095/ . None of these are hard rules obviously but there are a lot of cliques within just LGBT where bi people are hated/excluded from lesbian/gay circles, trans people are excluded from all of the above. Stuff like vegans vs vegetarians, environmentalists vs those focused on social issues, and on and on.

I think the saying "the left fights while the right falls in line" is something that needs to be really driven home.

Re:Don't Be a Sucker by sudosysgen on Monday August 31, 2020 @03:11PM (#24334917)
Agreed. There is indeed massive infighting amongst the left, and obviously a lot of misguided people. But generally and in theory I still disagree on the GP's point that the left aims to divide our society.
Re:Don't Be a Sucker by AnimalMuppet on Monday August 31, 2020 @04:24PM (#24335556)
It may not be that they intend to divide. It may be the inevitable result of their current strategy. If the way you tell people to think about society is to categorize people by race, sex, gender, etc., then that's... not very unifying. If the central point of your message is that certain groups treat members of other groups badly, that's not just not unifying, that's dividing. (It may be necessary dividing, but it's still dividing.)
Re:Don't Be a Sucker by sudosysgen on Monday August 31, 2020 @04:38PM (#24335693)
Empirical analysis of our current society shows that there are divides and power relations along racial, gender and class lines. If you can't acknowledge them, there is no way to fix them. And most importantly, in practice the left reduces the divide.

If you have a better idea of how to fix it, I'm all ears. But fixing a problem without recognizing it exists is, well, not typically accepted as solid practice.

Re:Don't Be a Sucker by AnimalMuppet on Monday August 31, 2020 @04:56PM (#24335851)
Take "White Fragility", for instance. Can there be unconscious racism? Certainly. But telling every white person that they are inherently racist simply because they are white... yeah, that's not how you "reduce the divide". (It's also both wrong and racist.)

I don't know what the answer is, but that wasn't it. All that did was tell people that they're dealing with flaming zealots with ridiculously out-there ideas. And it told whites that the author had selected them as being part of the bad guys, without actually knowing anything about them - and therefore that there was no point in engaging with people like the author, since all they were going to get was condemnation, regardless of what the reality was.

Re:Don't Be a Sucker by sudosysgen on Monday August 31, 2020 @05:12PM (#24336031)
The book "White Fragility" was rejected pretty soundly by most leftists, actually. Corporate pseudo-progressives loved it, however. I definitely agree that a lot of people are coopting leftist languages. But ultimately, corporate diversity consultants aren't leftists, they're delusional neoliberals.

Here are criticisms of "White Fragility" from a leftist perspective :

https://jacobinmag.com/2020/06/racism-george-floyd-racial-ju...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/08/divers...

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/dig-read-this-not-whit...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0kFTtR34cek

As you can see, there are a lot of them. I definitely agree with your criticism of White Fragility , and so do the vast majority of leftists. I'd attribute the stunningly deficient thinking behind it to trying to explain why we still have the divide starting with the assumption that our economic and political structures are fundamental good, which they aren't, but a less charitable and a bit more cooky explanation would be that it's a classic case of Embrace, Extend, Extinguish.

Re:Don't Be a Sucker by AnimalMuppet on Monday August 31, 2020 @05:26PM (#24336132)
Interesting. (And, to me, very surprising. I had no idea - I thought leftists embraced "White Fragility".)

Thanks for the links.

I would guess, though, that the author of "White Fragility" at least thinks she's on the left, maybe even the radical left. And I don't think that book helped to reduce the divides we were talking about. (I still don't have any answers for what to actually do. What do you do with people who think they're with you, and who are both theoretically and practically against you? And who label themselves with your group?)

Re:Don't Be a Sucker by sudosysgen on Monday August 31, 2020 @05:57PM (#24336324)
I'm happy you find the links useful :)

There is definitly a lot of cognitive dissonance amongst people such as the author of White Fragility. The best solution for them is figures such as Chris Hedges, Richard Wolff, Cornell West, and Bernie Sanders. I think ultimately the issue with this lies upon the media - the views of the left are constantly misrepresented, and leftists such as Chris Hedges are outright banned from the media - he was fired from the NYT for opposing the Iraq War. Ultimately what you have to do is to build local organizations, vote very heavily in local primaries to get people such as AOC elected, start unions. It's a very difficult fight. You'll notice too that people such as DiAngelo in the mainstream media will generally attack leftists on aesthetics and ignore their points, like what happened with Sanders.

Additionally, people politically have tried to label themselves as leftists (including the Nazis - they called themselves National Socialists as they were signing deals with Krupp to make unions illegal and preparing to execute members of the Socialist and Communist parties). When those people have hegemony, it's a difficult fight.

Ultimately I think the basic distinction between leftists and people that pretend to be leftists is always economic. If you get the platform, the best attack vector is to focus on how useless their ideology is to fix economic issues, and how these economic issues are the engine of racism. If you manage to get them to admit that their economic policies do nothing to help the poor and the common man, it becomes very easy to call them out as not a leftist. But getting that platform is exceedingly difficult, even when you're a professor in economics at MIT, a Pullitzer prize winning journalist, the most popular politician in the US (see : Bernie Blackout), or an acclaimed doctor in Philosophy and influential critic of Obama (such as Cornell West - if he was a Republican he'd get twenty times more airtime).

Re:Don't Be a Sucker by hairofadog on Monday August 31, 2020 @04:45PM (#24335760)
I disagree with the idea that asking people to stop treating other groups badly, if they are in fact doing that, is divisive. I would argue it's the opposite of divisive.

However – and I say this as someone who identifies as a progressive – I agree with the sentiment that we have a problem on the left with both the over-application of purity tests and with lack of discipline, both of which I think are alienating, but neither of which are inherent to liberalism.

Re:Don't Be a Sucker by AnimalMuppet on Monday August 31, 2020 @05:21PM (#24336093)
Asking people who are treating other groups badly to stop is necessary, whether or not it's divisive.

Telling all of a group that they're treating other groups badly is, I argue, divisive, in two ways. First, it defines the accused group as being a unity which is against the other group, which is also defined as a unity. That's dividing people into those groups.

Second, it's peeling off allies from the other group. People react by thinking "If you're going to lump me in with the oppressors, without knowing a thing about me, then screw you. I'm out. I don't want anything to do with your crusade."

I agree with your second paragraph.

Re:Don't Be a Sucker by AWildC182 on Monday August 31, 2020 @03:14PM (#24334949)
Yea, I don't think it's really accurate even if it's sometimes the unintentional result. It's frustrating because I really appreciate the rest of the perspective they're offering.
Re:Don't Be a Sucker by anm89 on Monday August 31, 2020 @08:23PM (#24337261)
Paraphrasing you back to yourself: "the goal of the left isn't to divide on gender and class, it's to highlight existing divisions"

So we agree then.

Re:Don't Be a Sucker by sudosysgen on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @06:07PM (#24347708)
No. The goal of the left is to fix the existing divisions. In order to do so, their existence and extent needs to be laid bare.
Re:Don't Be a Sucker by anm89 on Monday August 31, 2020 @07:41PM (#24337025)
I agree that many people hold this well intentioned goal. The reality I have seen is VERY different.
Re:Don't Be a Sucker by sudosysgen on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @06:10PM (#24347732)
Care to give examples? US Democrats aren't leftists, they are just normal neoliberals.