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Re:FedEx feeder plane takes flight without pilot in test for... by marcosdumay on Monday August 31, 2020 @01:22PM (#24333677)
There are landing procedures where the pilot simply follows the machine instructions for a long while already. And it works perfectly well where it's available.

Also, the take-off being easier, it's not conceivable that a machine couldn't do it. The reason there is no such machine today is exactly because it's easier, so pilots never need any help.

Instead, the hard part isn't flying. it's all the things an airplane does while landed. It's taxing, interacting with other planes, interacting with other vehicles (there are a lot of them in an airport), parking, etc. If the airport is entirely built for automation, I imagine that will become much easier.

Re:FedEx feeder plane takes flight without pilot in test for... by Scoundreller on Monday August 31, 2020 @02:15PM (#24334291)
That’s one thing that boggles my mind about airports: it seems like they’re all designed from the ground-up as if it’s the first airport ever built. Terminals too.

I get that the biggest airports have grown organically, but I’m surprised a city building a new terminal or airport (Berlin anyone?) can’t order a standard proven design like they’re building a McDonald’s or Holiday Inn.

Re:FedEx feeder plane takes flight without pilot in test for... by jschwartzi on Monday August 31, 2020 @04:41PM (#24335719)
Airports are built to fit the space they're allocated. And runways have to be sited accounting for approach patterns that can be many hundreds of miles. Given the variation in geography of the planet Earth there's zero one-size fits all construction that can be done.

Airports are standardized to the degree they can be standardized. There are entire sections of the Human Factors and Ergonomics Design Handbook devoted to airport terminals and other large transportation spaces. But these spaces have to be designed to fit the place that they are constructed in.

Re:FedEx feeder plane takes flight without pilot in test for... by manquer on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @04:29AM (#24339651)
Berlin is disaster and running joke on so many levels.

If the city was competent about the project, they would have actually hired people who knew what they were doing. While new terminals and airports are not as standard as Holiday Inn, there are plenty of constraints in most cities [1], that do not allow a lot of room for radical change, and design usually come out not widely different.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QZ3eozyQfU

Re:FedEx feeder plane takes flight without pilot in test for... by kgermino on Monday August 31, 2020 @02:41PM (#24334612)
> Also, the take-off being easier, it's not conceivable that a machine couldn't do it. The reason there is no such machine today is exactly because it's easier, so pilots never need any help.

I don't think it's just that take off is easier, but that it's also more dangerous than landing. If something happens during take-off and the computer needs help, it needs the pilot to step in quickly so you don't have time to do a computer -> person hand-off.

I don't think it would affect this proposal (no passengers on board, and package-only airports can be located far away from things to hit) but worth noting.

Re:FedEx feeder plane takes flight without pilot in test for... by marcosdumay on Monday August 31, 2020 @08:57PM (#24337461)
> If something happens during take-off and the computer needs help, it needs the pilot to step in quickly so you don't have time to do a computer -> person hand-off.

The same happens at landing, but the airplane is moving faster.

Re:FedEx feeder plane takes flight without pilot in test for... by kgermino on Wednesday September 02, 2020 @11:14AM (#24354032)
Yes, but faster is usually better in this case.

Over simplifying, there are a lot of situations during take-off and landing where stopping isn't an option. During landing, the extra speed helps you take-off and try again (go around) with minimal risk. A computer can pretty easily handle "something's weird, TOGO and have the pilot take over." Take-off doesn't have that safety margin.

Re:FedEx feeder plane takes flight without pilot in test for... by eternalny1 on Monday August 31, 2020 @04:00PM (#24335358)
> Also, the take-off being easier, it's not conceivable that a machine couldn't do it. The reason there is no such machine today is exactly because it's easier, so pilots never need any help.

It exists:

"Airbus demonstrates first fully automatic vision-based take-off"

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-releases/en/2020/01/ai...

Re:FedEx feeder plane takes flight without pilot in test for... by moof2k on Saturday September 05, 2020 @01:50AM (#24381636)
Takeoff is relatively straightforward: planes "want" to fly. Deciding if, when and how you should abort a takeoff is less straightforward.
Re:FedEx feeder plane takes flight without pilot in test for... by laurent92 on Monday August 31, 2020 @06:33PM (#24336563)
Pilots have to learn the schematics of electrical wiring behind the dashboards. They are expected to do problem-solving in case of malfunction, and this happens really often. The first time asymetric thrust was used to pilot a plane (ailerons and elevators didn’t work), it was done without being in the books. I wonder how this can work with computers, given they have very fee sensors compared to humans (« Do you smell smoke coming from the vents? ») and they are not yet capable of reasoning. They need to be trained millions of time for each failure mode. Granted, thanks to 70 years of experience with MD, we have listed those failures quite extensively and this part is well documented.
Re:FedEx feeder plane takes flight without pilot in test for... by outworlder on Monday August 31, 2020 @07:06PM (#24336769)
> Do you smell smoke coming from the vents?

This is not the most common way to detect a fire in an aircraft (unless GA). The most common way is "FIRE" being indicated in the annunciator panel.

> Pilots have to learn the schematics of electrical wiring behind the dashboards.

No they are definitely do not. They will only know the wiring if they are also mechanics.

They need to know which fuses control what, but that's a much higher level.

> They are expected to do problem-solving in case of malfunction

Also no. The first thing to be done is triggering the memory items. Those are memorized. Zero thought here. Pilots have to (and generally will) fall back to what they have been instructed to do.

Next there's the checklists. They will execute the checklists line item by line item. No thinking happens here either, nor it is supposed to.

If all those fail... usually you'll read the resolution in some NTSB report.

> The first time asymetric thrust was used to pilot a plane (ailerons and elevators didn’t work), it was done without being in the books

Not sure if that was the first time, maybe first time in an _airliner_. Also in that particular incident, they had an experience commander, first officer and an instructor for that specific model of aircraft working together (the instructor was handling the thrust levers).

That was also a very extraordinary incident.

> flight crew performance was highly commendable and greatly exceeded reasonable expectations

> I wonder how this can work with computers

During the Columbia incident, the computers didn't know the wing was melting. But they detected a deviation from the flight path, which they tried to correct with control surfaces. When that failed, they added RCS thrusters too. The 'wing melting condition' wasn't programmed, but still they managed to use all available resources.

For more on how we could allow craft to 'intelligently' respond to failures, take a look at the Remote Agent, from NASA's DS-1 mission.

Re:FedEx feeder plane takes flight without pilot in test for... by drran on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @03:22AM (#24339329)
If a plane is unmanned, then, in case of malfunction, just safely smash it into the ground.