News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The Big Tesla Hack: A hacker gained control over the enti... by wrkronmiller on Sunday August 30, 2020 @08:42PM (#24327377)
Care to elaborate on why you believe this?
Re:The Big Tesla Hack: A hacker gained control over the enti... by burfog on Sunday August 30, 2020 @08:55PM (#24327455)
It's like being in 1995 and predicting that Windows botnets will be created. The coming disaster is inevitable.

State-sponsored hackers are not going to ignore the opportunity. They probably have the capability already, in dozens of countries, and are just waiting for orders from the leaders. If war is starting, the order will be given. Sanctions could be enough to trigger it.

Re:The Big Tesla Hack: A hacker gained control over the enti... by gfxgirl on Sunday August 30, 2020 @10:13PM (#24327897)
So you predicted botnets in 1995 and ..... nothing much happened. botnets suck but there wasn't some world crashing event like the person above is predicting for computer controlled cars. All Windows computers didn't shut off on one day.
Re:The Big Tesla Hack: A hacker gained control over the enti... by peripitea on Sunday August 30, 2020 @11:22PM (#24328246)
I'm struggling to understand your point. It's a different threat model; of course it will manifest differently, no? A mothership-style model seems much more vulnerable to every node being compromised than the decentralized vector Win95 botnets have to go through.

I could see arguing with the inevitability of the exploit -- Win95 botnets seemed much more inevitable to me than this Tesla mothership threat does. But it seems like you're arguing that they will both have similar impact if exploited. That doesn't make sense to me, because they're completely different threats, but it's possible I'm misunderstanding your argument in some way.

Re:The Big Tesla Hack: A hacker gained control over the enti... by actuator on Sunday August 30, 2020 @11:05PM (#24328157)
I would disagree, sure botnets can't be used for threatening life directly; but botnets have been proven to be quite effective in attacking services and do denial of services attacks. The one thing we can take from botnets is, vulnerable and unpatched devices can be infiltrated in high numbers and attackers can lie low until they decide to pull the trigger.

Imagine even 0.1% cars being controlled, the mayhem and loss of life that they can cause is just immense.

Power plants are also dangerous targets in a similar sense, but hopefully there is network separation for control services.

Re:The Big Tesla Hack: A hacker gained control over the enti... by thoughtstheseus on Sunday August 30, 2020 @09:03PM (#24327505)
I thought it was well known that infrastructure has been a target of state hacking?
Re:The Big Tesla Hack: A hacker gained control over the enti... by godelski on Sunday August 30, 2020 @10:21PM (#24327944)
I think this is well known to tech literate people. Problem is that that's not most people. On HN we have sampling bias because we're more likely to be associated with people with similar interests, i.e. tech.
Re:The Big Tesla Hack: A hacker gained control over the enti... by gruez on Sunday August 30, 2020 @08:50PM (#24327424)
Not the OP, but the precedents are here: Always-connected cars (eg. teslas): check. Being able to take control of a car via the CAN bus[1]: check. The only thing missing in the exploit chain is something that allows the attacker to jump from the modem/infotainment system to the CAN bus or ecu.

[1] https://www.wired.com/2016/08/jeep-hackers-return-high-speed...

Re:The Big Tesla Hack: A hacker gained control over the enti... by vvanders on Sunday August 30, 2020 @09:10PM (#24327539)
Tesla uses a pretty different architecture from the dumpster fire that was OnStar.

Been a while since I looked in the details but from what I recall only very limited, well scrutinized communication is allowed to bridge the Ethernet subsystem over to the CAN bus.

Re:The Big Tesla Hack: A hacker gained control over the enti... by gnramires on Monday August 31, 2020 @12:34AM (#24328524)
Well fundamentally, they can be breached. Since the self-driving AI system can be updated (afaik), then vehicle control can certainly be remotely altered.

I guess those risks are a bit like nuclear launch risks. Someone, somewhere (that controls the right key) could unleash an enormous accident. You just hope the system as a whole has enough redundancy for it to be sufficiently unlikely. In nuclear arms technology we have multiple authorizations required for launches. Then of course the underlying system has to be robust enough so none of those measures can be bypassed.

There is no fundamental barrier that I can see -- we know how to build incredibly robust systems using methods like formal verification of software and just thorough quality assurance and testing. In a way, much of the world is already exposed to those kinds of risks: most individuals's phones, laptops and even industrial computers can be remotely updated and incapacitated, exposing a risk of generalized trouble.

The adequate amount of resources to be allocated on those risky but extremely remote scenarios is what's important. I think there needs to be oversight guaranteeing every system is getting verification, testing and attention proportional to risk for society. The usual punitive incentives don't work very well for those cases. I don't think we have any agencies with this wide of an outlook currently.

Re:The Big Tesla Hack: A hacker gained control over the enti... by Silhouette on Sunday August 30, 2020 @09:16PM (#24327563)
Tesla uses a pretty different architecture from the dumpster fire that was OnStar.

And probably other manufacturers will use their own designs.

Unfortunately, this is one of those issues where we have to be lucky every time, and the bad guys only have to be lucky once. Given the number of different manufacturers whose systems have demonstrably been compromised in the past, the odds of avoiding catastrophic compromises in the future as cars gain more autonomous features don't look great here.

Re:The Big Tesla Hack: A hacker gained control over the enti... by vvanders on Sunday August 30, 2020 @11:43PM (#24328325)
I guess we should just give up and leave everything wide open then right? No point in trying to do defense in depth if someone will eventually hack something?
Re:The Big Tesla Hack: A hacker gained control over the enti... by Silhouette on Monday August 31, 2020 @07:25AM (#24330301)
I didn't say that at all.

One plausible alternative is that we don't deploy systems like this, which have the ability to cause widespread damage including loss of life in moments, until we have worked out how to secure them properly against a single point of catastrophic failure like that. There are things that could be done to mitigate that threat in the meantime.

This is set against the knowledge that existing human-driven vehicles are involved in many tragic accidents per year, also causing widespread damage including loss of life. But there are other things that can be done to limit the damage there as well, without relying on autonomous vehicles as a silver bullet.

Re:The Big Tesla Hack: A hacker gained control over the enti... by jacquesm on Sunday August 30, 2020 @09:46PM (#24327738)
Try rental cars.
Re:The Big Tesla Hack: A hacker gained control over the enti... by chadlavi on Sunday August 30, 2020 @08:46PM (#24327397)
I'd guess because posting speculative armchair stuff on the internet is free and easy to do
Re:The Big Tesla Hack: A hacker gained control over the enti... by ghuntley on Sunday August 30, 2020 @08:47PM (#24327409)
Re:The Big Tesla Hack: A hacker gained control over the enti... by sukilot on Sunday August 30, 2020 @09:05PM (#24327515)
In the context of international sabotage, I thought that domain name was for answering questions of the form "Can CIA _____?"