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Re:Wind and solar are cheaper than thought, admits UK govern... by bjourne on Thursday August 27, 2020 @04:37PM (#24298362)
> That doesn’t change the fact that neither wind nor solar can produce electricity on demand.

Neither can nuclear power. Nuclear power has significant and often unpredictable down-times making the power source not as reliable as one might think. In Sweden the availability for nuclear power is on average something like 85%. Availability depends on the age of the nuclear power plant, what the staff situation is and how tight the regulations are. Can't run the plant if most of the staff is home sick and tighter regulations means more downtime for inspections.

The availability for wind power in the North Sea is about 50%. Admittedly, lower than 85% but you can make up for it by building many wind farms.

> Currently, we’re paying 31 Euro cents in Germany per kWh while French customers whose grid has a large share of nuclear pay just 17 Euro cents per kWh on average.

That is an argument for tighter integration of electricity grids between countries. But also 31 - 17 = 14 cents/kWh. The cost of electricity isn't a problem for most households (in my household the static fee is the biggest expense even during the winter months).

Re:Wind and solar are cheaper than thought, admits UK govern... by jsharf on Thursday August 27, 2020 @05:16PM (#24298771)
You can't just buy more wind farms -- the wind in an area is correlated. That means if one wind farm isn't producing power, the wind farms nearby aren't likely to be producing power either.

But nuclear power plants? Completely uncorrelated. If each one produces power 85% of the time, then you need two, and you'll almost always have power.

Re:Wind and solar are cheaper than thought, admits UK govern... by jarvist on Thursday August 27, 2020 @07:27PM (#24299836)
> But nuclear power plants? Completely uncorrelated. If each one produces power 85% of the time, then you need two, and you'll almost always have power.

Not really true. French nuclear output drops every time there's a European heatwave. It used to be the only time that the cross-channel link rank backwards (UK powering France).

I think France responded to this in the context of climate change by changing the protection standards for their rivers?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/aug/12/france.nuclear

Re:Wind and solar are cheaper than thought, admits UK govern... by GordonS on Thursday August 27, 2020 @05:26PM (#24298879)
I don't think wind is a panacea, but I think you're over-simplifying things - you can't just buy more nuclear power plants either; at least in the Western world, cost overruns in multiples of the original price are inevitable, the total time from planning to operational is decades, and it's difficult to find places where their presence is accepted.
Re:Wind and solar are cheaper than thought, admits UK govern... by jjoonathan on Thursday August 27, 2020 @05:33PM (#24298952)
If only we hadn't stopped building nuclear in the 80s, we'd be at 100% instead of 20% market penetration. We would be free of CO2-heavy electricity today, not maybe 30 years from now optimistically. We knew how to build nuclear, but then Chernobyl and TMI happened and we decided we didn't want to. Which, in a vacuum, seems reasonable, until one remembers that the "cool-headed alternative" we settled on was to pump our atmosphere full of CO2 while we waited for solar and wind to eventually become viable and continue to wait to deploy them.

We made our bed and now we get to lie in it.

Re:Wind and solar are cheaper than thought, admits UK govern... by oska on Thursday August 27, 2020 @08:38PM (#24300285)
Your portrayal is so slanted. Here's an alternative take: if the many, many, many billions of dollars that were squandered on the nuclear fission industry around the world had instead been invested into wind, solar and storage then we could be at 100% renewable today. Nuclear had incredible top level support and still failed. Renewables are now succeeding and besting nuclear (fission) despite being neglected for so long.
Re:Wind and solar are cheaper than thought, admits UK govern... by throwaway0899 on Friday August 28, 2020 @06:35AM (#24303334)
In what way has nuclear failed anything? It’s working fine.

It’s not the technology’s fault we decided not to build any more power plants.

Re:Wind and solar are cheaper than thought, admits UK govern... by GordonS on Thursday August 27, 2020 @05:42PM (#24299022)
FWIW, I completely agree. Nuclear power in much of the west became a "toxic" issue after Chernobyl in particular. Here in the UK, I don't think we've had a new reactor built since the mid 90's - if we'd been more rational, we could potentially have saved the environment a lot of damage while solar and wind matured and became viable.
Re:Wind and solar are cheaper than thought, admits UK govern... by baix777 on Thursday August 27, 2020 @08:42PM (#24300307)
Oddly enough, buying more wind farms in the same area can solve the power supply issue some of the time. For example, say there is a low wind day when winds farms are not effective enough, but still generating power. If wind farms are cheap enough, one can over provision. This means on high wind days too much power is available, but on low wind days enough is available. This doesn't solve the no wind day, but it does make the not enough wind day less common. And making the not enough wind day less common means the energy storage and generation solutions need to be used less often.

However, having said this, I would like to see a model of this with all the generation potential and costs involved, because right now we are all speculating. One can think of a multi-generation options, with wind and solar being the first and default option, battery (and other storage options) being the next option if wind and solar aren't enough, and gas being the third option if required.

Someone must have created a model like this?

Re:Wind and solar are cheaper than thought, admits UK govern... by natmaka on Friday August 28, 2020 @12:31AM (#24301374)
"Wind it up: Europe has the untapped onshore capacity to meet global energy demand" is "maximalist" but shows that there is potential: https://archive.sussex.ac.uk/news/press-releases/id/49312

In-depth studies petition that "the European energy system would strongly profit from exploiting the implications of these regimes for continent-scale wind generation patterns." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5540172/ and "Such a pan-European wind power system would provide a stable output across a wide range of large-scale weather conditions" "but also requires enhanced transmission". This enhanced european grid network benefits to other forms of power production and is already planed. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/318476478_Balancing... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S136403211...

There are ways to reduce loss induced by long powerlines, mainly HVDC ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current )

All this is also true for solar, and there is even at least one megaproject: https://www.suncable.sg/

Re:Wind and solar are cheaper than thought, admits UK govern... by bjourne on Thursday August 27, 2020 @05:47PM (#24299067)
Right. It is not disputed that one wind farm doesn't have the same availability as one (modern) nuclear power plant. My point is that you have to look at availability from a whole-system perspective point of view. Offshore wind farms spread out over large areas, coupled with tighter net integration and backup power sources can make renewable power just as reliable as nuclear.

Nuclear power is not magic either and can also suffer from disruptions. For example, if the delivery of uranium fuel is delayed, if there is a CODID-19 pandemic so workers are unavailable for maintenance work, if there are strikes, if there are Greenpeace activists who have breached the security lines sitting on the roof, etc...

In fact, I believe that the reliability of the German grid has gone up after Energiewende. Though it was a long time since I looked at it so I don't have a source handy. Reason being that the main source of power outages is disruptions in the electricity grid and not in the electricity production.

Re:Wind and solar are cheaper than thought, admits UK govern... by econcon on Thursday August 27, 2020 @11:45PM (#24301152)
They need water source for cooling if the water is shared in a region and water temperature goes up, all the nuclear plants using that water lose their production.
Re:Wind and solar are cheaper than thought, admits UK govern... by _ph_ on Thursday August 27, 2020 @07:12PM (#24299721)
Nuclear also does not produce electricity on demand the other way: once a nuclear power plant is running at full power, it is a very slow process to reduce the power output, so it is stuck with producing power which has to be used in the grid. Which is one of the reasons of power overproduction. Also, it is quite a challenge for countries like France who depend mostly on nuclear for their grid. They have to run the powerplants frequently not in the most efficient regime, but one, where they have the largest amount of control of the power output.
Re:Wind and solar are cheaper than thought, admits UK govern... by corty on Thursday August 27, 2020 @08:13PM (#24300134)
Most nuclear plants in Europe can do 5% per minute changes. That is not as quick as for gas turbines, but also not really slow. Load following is just not used very often, because you usually regulate down your most expensive power source (gas), not a cheaper one.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load_following_power_plant

Re:Wind and solar are cheaper than thought, admits UK govern... by bassman9000 on Thursday August 27, 2020 @10:14PM (#24300756)
Nuclear power has significant and often unpredictable down-times

The availability for wind power in the North Sea is about 50%. Admittedly, lower than 85%

It's not only lower. It's 35% lower. That's a lot of lower.

Aside from hydro, which I very much like, but it has its own limitations, what else comes even close to nuclear?

https://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/iaea-releases-2019-data...

I'd say nuclear is very much predictable.

Re:Wind and solar are cheaper than thought, admits UK govern... by bjourne on Friday August 28, 2020 @07:49PM (#24311760)
In statistics, quantity beats quality. Suppose you have 3 nuclear power plants, each with 85% reliability and 10 wind power farms, each with 50% reliability. Assuming statistical independence (obviously a bad assumption, but that is not the point), do you think it is more likely that none of the 3 nuclear power plants generate electricity or none of the 10 wind power farms?
Re:Wind and solar are cheaper than thought, admits UK govern... by fomine3 on Monday August 31, 2020 @12:45AM (#24328567)
> (obviously a bad assumption, but that is not the point)

It's the point for solar/wind energy.

Re:Wind and solar are cheaper than thought, admits UK govern... by knoke on Friday August 28, 2020 @05:18AM (#24302916)
Even worse with fusion: huge plants (10 GW) that need to run constantly with high power output to remain hardly economical that can’t be buffered with anything else than other fusion plants nearby. My guess: fusion plants will be built for single applications with crazy power usage where downtime doesn’t hurt too much. Errrm, accelerating spaceships?
Re:Wind and solar are cheaper than thought, admits UK govern... by imtringued on Friday August 28, 2020 @06:41AM (#24303374)
Space is pretty much the goto application for fusion. Without fusion interstellar travel is basically impossible.