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Re:Does Facebook pay Apple 30% of revenue derived from ads m... by spiderfarmer on Thursday August 27, 2020 @04:31PM (#24298307)
Goes to show how arbitrary their rules are. And how untruthful their reasoning.
Re:Does Facebook pay Apple 30% of revenue derived from ads m... by baddox on Thursday August 27, 2020 @04:48PM (#24298482)
Why do you think this is arbitrary? It makes a lot of sense and is pretty obvious when you look across all apps. This tweet is trying to point out a "gotcha" when there is absolutely nothing inconsistent, unreasonable, or shocking here. Apple doesn't take a cut when you order things on the Amazon app, or when you buy stocks on Robinhood, or when you rent a car on Turo. Apple takes a cut from in-app purchases, but that is a term that Apple defines precisely. It obviously doesn't mean "any purchase in any app."
Re:Does Facebook pay Apple 30% of revenue derived from ads m... by DaiPlusPlus on Thursday August 27, 2020 @05:22PM (#24298841)
You’re not wrong - but there’s some ugly edge-cases when a user’s purchase pays for digital goods where Apple’s share may be considered unwarranted or just greedy:

Supposing I have a B2B (not B2C) web-application + SaaS for a hypothetical professional studio photographers’s portfolio app. The app is entirely free (gratis) with self-service signup in the app for a free SaaS service tier - the app itself is only used for uploading photos to the SaaS service (I.e. it’s a utility/companion app).

Now, supposing that users on the free tier can pay a one-off fee (in the iOS app or on the web) to enable the ability to set a custom colour scheme for their portfolio page (which doesn’t affect the appearance of the iOS app at all) - that doesn’t count as a purchase which enhances the app experience - it doesn’t enable/disable or change anything in the app - should that be an IAP with the 30% tax - or an Apple Pay purchase with only ~3% processing fees?

Now, what if instead of selling that digital-only, app-irrelevant good in the app instead users could buy a physical “welcome pack” in the app which consists of a cheap Zazzle tote-bag with the company logo on - and as a bonus to the user enables the same custom-colour-scheme feature as a “thank you” to the user (like how Reddit and GitHub add flair to your account if you’re a paying user). Does (or should) Apple get 30% or 3% of that? If the cost of selling the tote bag is less than Apple’s 30% fee then I’ve found a loophole in IAP vs. AP.

Re:Does Facebook pay Apple 30% of revenue derived from ads m... by AnssiH on Friday August 28, 2020 @04:54AM (#24302774)
> (like how Reddit and GitHub add flair to your account if you’re a paying user)

That is not a thing at Reddit (I'm a paying user and there is no special flair nor any setting to add one).

Re:Does Facebook pay Apple 30% of revenue derived from ads m... by DaiPlusPlus on Friday August 28, 2020 @07:00PM (#24311346)
I didn't mean the flair that appears next to your username in comment-replies, but you still get the "Reddit Premium" and "Gilding" badges on your profile's Trophy Case section.

On GitHub, you get the purple "PRO" badge next to your username on your profile page and in the profile-tooltips elsewhere on GitHub.

Re:Does Facebook pay Apple 30% of revenue derived from ads m... by ccktlmazeltov on Thursday August 27, 2020 @04:58PM (#24298596)
why can't you build your own browser? Why can't you build your own online game shop?
Re:Does Facebook pay Apple 30% of revenue derived from ads m... by troygoode on Thursday August 27, 2020 @05:13PM (#24298736)
You can. Feel free to deploy it to your device. You just can't distribute it.
Re:Does Facebook pay Apple 30% of revenue derived from ads m... by DaiPlusPlus on Thursday August 27, 2020 @05:24PM (#24298859)
I don’t think apps not signed by Apple themselves can mark read/write memory pages as read/execute - that’s needed for any modern JIT-based JavaScript engine to work.
Re:Does Facebook pay Apple 30% of revenue derived from ads m... by mike00632 on Thursday August 27, 2020 @05:19PM (#24298807)
Can you sideload onto an Apple device? Or do you mean that the device you buy isn't actually "your" device?
Re:Does Facebook pay Apple 30% of revenue derived from ads m... by kbenson on Thursday August 27, 2020 @05:35PM (#24298970)
> Can you sideload onto an Apple device?

Not legally, in most jurisdictions.

The only way to compete with Apple in the browsers space on iOS is to build your own app marketplace/store, since Apple controls distribution through the App Store.

The only way to compete with Apple in the app store space is to build your own OS, since iOS only allows the Apple App Store, not competing ones.

The only way to compete with Apple in the OS space is to build your own hardware (or buy from someone else and distribute), since Apple hardware locks out other operating systems from running.

So the only way to compete with Apple in a space where they've decided you aren't allowed to is to replace their entire platform stack, and compete with them at the platform level.

So to compete with Apple in the browser space you have to compete at the level of Google, where you make hardware, the OS, and the marketplace, and hope people move over wholesale to your hardware and OS just so they can use your browser.

That's why Apple's behavior is anti-competitive. They've put walls to competition in place at every possible level to make it so the amount of money and expertise required to compete at any level is the same to competing at almost all levels.

Re:Does Facebook pay Apple 30% of revenue derived from ads m... by baddox on Thursday August 27, 2020 @05:41PM (#24299014)
You explain in detail what it would take to compete with Apple, but you’re trying to make the point that this is impossible to do, when in fact many smartphone manufacturers have done precisely that. Apple has a very small global market share on smartphones and only around 50% in the US.
Re:Does Facebook pay Apple 30% of revenue derived from ads m... by AnthonyMouse on Thursday August 27, 2020 @06:19PM (#24299322)
> You explain in detail what it would take to compete with Apple, but you’re trying to make the point that this is impossible to do, when in fact many smartphone manufacturers have done precisely that.

You say "many smartphone manufacturers" but in practice there aren't actually that many smartphone manufacturers. Moreover, there is only really one -- Google -- which has actually done it. All the others license their software stack from Google. Even Microsoft made a serious attempt to do this and failed.

Your claim is that an individual app developer who wants to compete with an Apple app on iOS could feasibly do this?

Re:Does Facebook pay Apple 30% of revenue derived from ads m... by kbenson on Thursday August 27, 2020 @06:09PM (#24299232)
> when in fact many smartphone manufacturers have done precisely that

Yes, if you're already poised at the lowest part of the platform stack, you can sell hardware that competes with Apple's hardware, but it can't fully compete, because you can't offer a better solution to host iOS on, you can only offer to be part of platform that competes. You cannot compete with Apple hardware directly on just the hardware level.

> Apple has a very small global market share on smartphones and only around 50% in the US.

I'm not making a case that Apple is a monopoly. I'm making a case that their action are anti-competitive (I'm using this term divorced from any specific legal meaning), and thus bad for their users in that respect.

Would allowing other hardware to run iOS be better or worse for users of iOS and the rest of the Apple ecosystem? In some ways better, in some ways worse, but we can't rely on the market to tell us the result of that specific question, because the market is constrained. We can look at each level of the platform stack similarly.

This is usually brought up as a matter of user choice, but I think it's important to distil that to what it means, competition. Choice means there are at least two competing things to choose from, an given that our economic model requires choice (among other things, such as information about choices) to function correctly.

Do I think Apple has a monopoly, as previously defined by law? No. But I think it's important to note that nobody had a monopoly as defined by law before the late 1800's, because that legal definition didn't exist, and was created to deal with harms we saw because of anti-competitive actions. So, I think Apple isn't a monopoly as we currently define it, but I do think their actions are anti-competitive in large and obvious ways, and that we may need to address that in some manner legislatively. That may mean altering the legal definition of monopoly so it matches, or it may just mean putting some select laws in place to hamper specific anti-competitive behavior (for example, a consumer right to be able to run whatever software you want on your hardware would address some small aspect of this).

That said, I've been a bit loose here in verifying some of my terminology about legal points, and IIRC you have experience in that domain, so I'm sure you can correct me on that if you feel it warranted (and I would welcome it, as well of course as any specific problems you think my argument has).

Re:Does Facebook pay Apple 30% of revenue derived from ads m... by hajimemash on Thursday August 27, 2020 @07:37PM (#24299908)
Yes! I hate that they wield this as a weapon against us developers.
Re:Does Facebook pay Apple 30% of revenue derived from ads m... by wrboyce on Thursday August 27, 2020 @07:46PM (#24299966)
Not legally? What?

Apple explicitly allow for loading your own apps, your opening gambit is a flat out lie.

Re:Does Facebook pay Apple 30% of revenue derived from ads m... by kbenson on Thursday August 27, 2020 @08:13PM (#24300130)
> Apple explicitly allow for loading your own apps, your opening gambit is a flat out lie.

The context of this discussion distributing software on Apple's platform, not installing your own software. Your own software is not market competition. The comments up-thread specifically cover this, so I don't know why you would think I was stating otherwise in a general sense, rather than working within the context of the discussion.

So, can sideloading be used as a way to distribute software you want to sell? Not legally, based on the restrictions Apple has put in place for sideloading. The closest you could get to my knowledge would be the enterprise program, which is only intended to be used to distribute software to employees.

There's also the point that the hoops required to successfully sideload an app are themselves a fairly large wall to being able to use it even at the level of a single person wanting to install something, even if it wasn't disallowed by different agreements you must make to do so.

Re:Does Facebook pay Apple 30% of revenue derived from ads m... by bearcobra on Thursday August 27, 2020 @05:21PM (#24298825)
But isn't the "gotcha" part the fact that the ads are displayed in the Facebook/Instragram apps? There isn't a real world transaction taking place like your other examples. It's more akin to being able to buy an ebook in the Kindle app.
Re:Does Facebook pay Apple 30% of revenue derived from ads m... by baddox on Thursday August 27, 2020 @05:39PM (#24299003)
The ads you buy on the Facebook app aren’t ads that you then get to see in your Facebook feed. You’re paying to have your own products/services advertised to other people.
Re:Does Facebook pay Apple 30% of revenue derived from ads m... by ummonk on Thursday August 27, 2020 @05:27PM (#24298893)
That’s purchasing a service (advertisement on other people’a computers and phones) not a digital good / enhancement for your own use.
Re:Does Facebook pay Apple 30% of revenue derived from ads m... by AlexandrB on Thursday August 27, 2020 @04:37PM (#24298360)
I'm confused what you mean by this. It seems pretty consistent to me.

Edit: This made more sense when I realized the headline was about purchasing ad placement within the app, not viewing ads.

Re:Does Facebook pay Apple 30% of revenue derived from ads m... by nprz on Thursday August 27, 2020 @04:45PM (#24298443)
The Bandcamp app does not allow you to purchase music through the app to avoid the apple tax. OPs comment suggests that Amazon does not pay the apple tax when purchasing digital goods (music, videos, books, etc.) through their app. That seems inconsistent.
Re:Does Facebook pay Apple 30% of revenue derived from ads m... by ArchOversight on Thursday August 27, 2020 @04:55PM (#24298565)
You are completely unable to purchase digital goods through the Amazon app.

No buying a kindle book, you'll be forced to open a web browser and do it that way. No purchasing movies, or music.

Physical goods that are delivered to your home, all good. Not an issue.