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Re:Rethinking the App Store by lloeki on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @05:27AM (#24280714)
> Apples curation isn't (as they suggest) preventing malware, theft of information, etc - this if verifiably false given recent history with apps like tiktok stealing clipboard

There are many things that go wrong with the App Store, but you have to realise this is a ludicrous assertion. Pasting from clipboard is an entirely different class than rootkits, backdoors, trojans, and other malware that have a vanishingly small chance to go through the review process itself.

This is defence in depth. The sandbox helps, but it’s not magic. Without review, publishing an app with a sandbox bypass, or simply abusing entitlements, becomes trivial.

Re:Rethinking the App Store by moooo99 on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @05:59AM (#24280941)
> Without review, publishing an app with a sandbox bypass, or simply abusing entitlements, becomes trivial.

I don't think this would be trivial either. Given that iOS security has historically been rather good, I guess an attacker would need a reasonably new exploit or even zero day. Assuming an attacker has access to something like that, I'm 99.8% certain he'd be able to sneak past the review process as well.

As Fortnite has demonstrated, it is perfectly possible to sneak past the review process with something as obvious as a third party payment checkout. If something like that is possible, it'd be definitely possible for something like an exploit.

The review process isn't magic

Re:Rethinking the App Store by scarface74 on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @08:35AM (#24281810)
Fortnite has also demonstrated how sloppy third party developers are with respect to security.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/08/fortnites-android-vu...

And at least Epic wasn’t purposefully installing back doors. Unlike Zoom.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/zoom-defends-use-of-local-web-...

Re:Rethinking the App Store by saagarjha on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @01:42PM (#24284994)
That argument doesn't make sense, because Apple isn't going to lower the sandboxing requirement for anyone, it's just going to provide an API to install an IPA. (Actually, that API already exists of course, they'll just remove the check that makes sure you're Apple when you call it.) Third parties' security practices have no bearing on how secure Apple makes their own platform–the parent comment is literally saying "Without review, publishing an app [that ships with a zero-day exploit for iOS] becomes trivial"
Re:Rethinking the App Store by scarface74 on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @02:00PM (#24285231)
A third party App Store by definition has permission to download other code. Android also has a sandbox. That didn’t prevent the security vulnerability from Fortnite.
Re:Rethinking the App Store by saagarjha on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @02:05PM (#24285299)
I hate to say it, but did you read the article? Saying "Android has a sandbox" to my comment makes no sense in the context of the issue with Fornite's installer. The vulnerability there was specifically that the third-party app store did not run in a sufficiently sandboxed environment, allowing another application to swap out the app after it was downloaded but before it was installed.
Re:Rethinking the App Store by scarface74 on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @02:11PM (#24285383)
So won’t the same people be screaming if Apple puts too tight of restrictions on a third party App Store? If Apple has to approve third party app stores, would people be happy?
Re:Rethinking the App Store by saagarjha on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @02:16PM (#24285433)
I am very confused as to how approval of third party app stores comes into this? The flow I'm thinking of is going to be "you install a third-party app store, which is identical to any other app except it has one additional capability that it takes an IPA and can request that the system install it". Keeping that in mind, is your comment still pertinent? If so, how?
Re:Rethinking the App Store by 3pt14159 on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @03:34PM (#24286331)
Sometimes Apple is aware of vulnerabilities before they are patched, and it only takes getting caught once for the app, company, and individual developer to be banned from the App Store.

Also, I think you may overestimate most attackers. Most of them are so lazy.

Re:Rethinking the App Store by mmebane on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @11:20AM (#24283234)
> Without review, publishing an app with a sandbox bypass, or simply abusing entitlements, becomes trivial.

I would _love_ a 3rd-party App Store that hosted jailbreak apps/apps that abuse private APIs/etc, so long as it was clear what I was getting.

Re:Rethinking the App Store by baddox on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @12:14PM (#24283882)
I suspect a large portion of Apple’s users value the fact that they can’t break their phone by accidentally installing the wrong app or clicking the wrong button. To them it might not be clear what they’re getting from this no-rules App Store.
Re:Rethinking the App Store by saagarjha on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @01:40PM (#24284971)
I think people using Cydia had a pretty good idea of what they were doing.
Re:Rethinking the App Store by baddox on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @02:05PM (#24285287)
Most of them probably did, because it was generally difficult to jailbreak the phone and there wasn't much reason to do so unless you were a hobbyist. App piracy was definitely a thing though, and I bet there were some people who did it because a friend told them they can get free apps, only to end up installing stuff that made the phone very buggy (which was definitely easy to do).

It's easy to say "well that's just their own fault if they installed something bad," but I don't think Apple really cares to argue with their customers over whose fault something technically was. Apple just wants their customers to have phones that are working well.

Re:Rethinking the App Store by saagarjha on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @02:17PM (#24285449)
Jailbreaking used to be as easy as going to a website and clicking "jailbreak".
Re:Rethinking the App Store by baddox on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @02:36PM (#24285694)
Yes, there was one family of jailbreaks that worked like that, but you'd still need to hear about that and have some reason to want to do it to your phone, and I suspect a very small portion of iPhone owners did that. It would be a lot worse if Apple were forced to allow anyone to make what are essentially jailbreak app stores like Cydia, then one of the biggest video games ever told all their players to go install that so that the video game company can sell digital items at higher margins.
Re:Rethinking the App Store by notriddle on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @03:59PM (#24286609)
I'm glad that doesn't work any more. I don't want arbitrary web pages to be able to run code as root on my phone.
Re:Rethinking the App Store by saagarjha on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @04:01PM (#24286631)
I'm glad too. But still, I don't think that has to mean "I can't run code as root on my phone".
Re:Rethinking the App Store by LexGray on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @11:15PM (#24289815)
Doubtful as few changed the root password.
Re:Rethinking the App Store by fauigerzigerk on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @07:09AM (#24281318)
>Without review, publishing an app with a sandbox bypass, or simply abusing entitlements, becomes trivial.

A sandbox that can be trivially bypassed is simply broken.

Granted, it's not easy to define what apps should and shouldn't be able to do within the sandbox. Permissions systems are difficult to get right. But whatever the rules are, they must be enforceable.

Re:Rethinking the App Store by MilaM on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @05:40AM (#24280804)
Yet Epic was able to sneak in their own payment system through app review. The review process is also not magic.
Re:Rethinking the App Store by graeme on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @11:33AM (#24283374)
Games have a special ability to download certain content. Epic may have done this? They clearly triggered the change remotely.
Re:Rethinking the App Store by romanoderoma on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @03:18PM (#24286179)
It's a very peculiar ability, it's called changing the content of a web page.

That's basically what Epic did.