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Re:Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite... by wcarey on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @08:57AM (#24270822)
> Nobody is forcing you to use a 3rd party app store, but Apple is forcing everyone to go through their store.

Many employers do that very thing. How many people have been compelled by employment circumstances to install Zoom despite its dubious pedigree? What happens when a corporate timecard app exists only in a 3rd party app store?

Re:Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite... by wayneftw on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @10:06AM (#24271463)
You can go work somewhere else too.

Having a choice is better than not having one, all around.

You can argue the changing employers is hard. I can also argue that 50% of my customers use iPhones and so I have to use one and know how they work. I literally cannot have an app business without dealing with Apple. That’s why this is an anti-trust situation.

Re:Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite... by wcarey on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @10:16AM (#24271548)
In the same way, though, that you can suggest I work somewhere else, I can suggest that you run your app business on another platform, so that doesn't seem to advance the argument very much? Plenty of folks make a living on the web or by selling Windows or Linux software.

Having choice about some things is better than not having one, all around. But some people choose (!) to delegate their choosing to others in certain fields. For example, the choice of whether to purchase safe meat or unsafe meat is a bad choice to have. It's doubly bad if you aren't skilled at determining the safety quality of meat. That's a choice I'm happy to outsource to a third party. Similarly, I'm happy to outsource a variety of choices about app terms of use to Apple.

Re:Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite... by wayneftw on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @10:36AM (#24271751)
> I can suggest that you run your app business on another platform...

Did you miss the part where I said that 50% of my customers use an iPhone? To be clear: 50% of the general population in the United States uses an iPhone. 90% of the youth market uses an iPhone. That doesn't leave much of a choice for developers at all.

You simply cannot have a successful app business in the US without being on Apple's app store.

Meanwhile, there are millions of potential employers in the United States.

Re:Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite... by wcarey on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @10:46AM (#24271852)
For some definition of "app business", sure. But there are plenty of companies making plenty of money in software without touching any app store. To be sure, Apple's popularity puts them in a really good negotiating position with respect to developers who want to sell certain kinds of software.
Re:Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite... by wayneftw on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @11:07AM (#24272093)
Agreed. But, for the sake of those app businesses that fit the right definition, we should allow for a choice of sideloading or competing app stores.

And no harm would come to consumers by giving them that choice.

Re:Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite... by wcarey on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @12:32PM (#24273108)
My argument is that some harm does befall at least some consumers. You might judge that harm worth the other tradeoffs, but it’s not zero.
Re:Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite... by wayneftw on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @05:35PM (#24276430)
And my argument is that some harm is already happening to some consumers [0, 1] and some more harm is already happening to the many, many developers who have complained about Apple's reprehensible behavior surrounding their app store.

With a law that requires Apple to open their platform to allow actually usable sideloading and/or competing app stores, we'd have removed more harm than we've added.

[0] Me, for example since I can't even comfortably put a program, that I wrote, onto my own device without paying Apple $100 a year.

[1] Every one of my business customers who wants a native app for their customers who they already had a relationship with before Apple came along and stuck their nose in to say what we could and could not do with our customers customers devices.

Re:Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite... by wcarey on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @06:09PM (#24276796)
That's good - we've moved from no harm to a balancing competing harms, which I think reflects the reality of the situation.

There's a spectrum of what you're allowed to do software-wise with various computing devices you purchase.

One the one extreme, you have something like a washing machine. It's a computing device running a particular suite of software that is essentially impossible for the end user to modify or replace. Many (most?) embedded systems are like this.

On the other extreme, you've got open hardware platforms like the Arduino where you can do whatever you want with the software for a very large value of "whatever you want".

The Raspberry Pi is in the middle, but very close to the Arduino. A Nintendo is somewhere in the middle but close do the dishwasher. Android devices are somewhere in the middle, but closer to the Arduino than the dishwasher (though this varies between devices and manufacturers). iOS devices are, again, somewhere in the middle. Much is allowed. Some things are not. OS X devices are closer to the Arduino than iOS devices are. That's also an intentional choice by Apple.

The placement of iOS along that spectrum is an intentional choice by Apple that customers have proven to support by buying iOS devices in prodigious quantity.

It's not obvious to me that taking a market leading choice in that spectrum and removing it produces less harm in the balance. It might, but it also might not. I'd be inclined to let people vote with their wallet as long as viable alternatives abound, which they do.

Re:Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite... by wayneftw on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @02:52PM (#24285871)
> That's good - we've moved from no harm to a balancing competing harms, which I think reflects the reality of the situation.

Not really, because there is no balance. Way more harm is done in the name of protecting people than is done by allowing freedoms.

The rest of your argument is predicated upon there being some kind of balance. There isn't one.

You don't need to look any further than The War on Drugs to see this. It's already been scientifically proven that letting people do what they want is far better for society. The only people who work to keep drugs illegal are those who benefit from them being illegal. Same thing here.

There's not much more to say about this. You're never going to convince me that removing freedom is better for society when people will always have the choice to remove it for themselves by making the right choices about who to associate with or who to do business with.

Re:Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite... by wcarey on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @03:22PM (#24286222)
You've made a compelling argument that Apple should be allowed to, in their freedom, do whatever they feel appropriate with regard to their own App store. The we each can make the right choice about whether or not we as individuals should do business with them. We should allow them that freedom. I'm convinced!
Re:Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite... by wayneftw on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @05:05PM (#24287252)
> You've made a compelling argument that Apple should be allowed to, in their freedom, do whatever they feel appropriate with regard to their own App store.

They're free to try. There's more of us than them though and we're also free to continue enforcing our existing anti-trust laws and make new ones for important digital platforms.

I advocate for freedom for the common man. What are you doing here?

Re:Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite... by wcarey on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @05:55PM (#24287747)
It seems like you've moved from a position of "way more harm is done by protecting people than allowing freedoms" to "more harm is done by allowing Apple to do as they wish; we need protection from that", despite Apple being a subset of "people".

And the "more of us than them" suggests that rather than any principled approach, you advocate something like the mob rule that the Athenians described to the Melians: the strong do what they will and the weak suffer what they must. Fair enough. That position has been common enough throughout history. Right now lots of people appear to like the way Apple is running their company. Does that make it right? You seem to think no, but are articulating reasons why you should think yes. That's perplexing to me.

I'm trying to make sense of what I think about the disagreement between Apple and Epic. I'm not sure. The arguments people are making against Apple so far seem unsuccessful and problematic to me. I think the collective bargaining argument I've cautiously advanced might make some sense.

Re:Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite... by wayneftw on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @06:09PM (#24287869)
Sorry, I didn’t really read any of that.

If you couldn’t tell that I completely disagree with your backwards notion of what’s right and good by now and that nothing you’ll say will convince me that less freedom for common folks is somehow better...even after I’ve told you this directly...yet you keep responding to me, I guess you just need to have the last word?

Have at it!

Re:Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite... by badsectoracula on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @09:23AM (#24271048)
Again a comparison that doesn't make sense - also employers pay you whereas when you buy an iOS device you pay for it. So not only you give Apple your money but also you give up control to them.
Re:Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite... by wcarey on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @09:30AM (#24271101)
That wasn't a comparison. If 3rd party app stores are a thing, you might be compelled to use them by yet other third parties, contrary to your claim that no one would force you to use third party app stores.
Re:Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite... by badsectoracula on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @09:39AM (#24271194)
Ah i see, i thought you were comparing employers forcing you to install something with Apple forcing everyone to go through their App Store.

Well, in that case, if employers force you to install something then just tell them give you a work phone. Or talk to them, you are adults.

And if that doesn't work, well, tough luck. This sounds like trying to solve a malfunctioning workplace problem by making everyone else suffer - it isn't my or Apple's or anyone else's problem that your boss forces you to install shady apps.

Re:Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite... by wcarey on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @09:49AM (#24271303)
Part of the reason I pay Apple for their devices is that they have offered to solve this problem for me. It's part of the value proposition of their device.
Re:Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite... by badsectoracula on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @06:51PM (#24277202)
You may see this as a solution, however this (non-)solution creates larger problems by itself as i have repeatedly mentioned in these comments.
Re:Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite... by wcarey on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @10:09PM (#24278351)
I'm not convinced the problems are larger (or, at least, not that they're larger for most people; some people are seriously inconvenience by Apple's policies. I once hit a hard roadblock trying to develop something for the iPhone and had to switch to Android exclusive development; so it goes). And I think having different organizations exploring different tradeoffs in this space is a valuable thing. There are platforms that are more open that Apples and platforms less open. That variety is healthy.
Re:Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite... by badsectoracula on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @03:43AM (#24280115)
I'm not sure what sort of tradeoff is there to explore: there aren't any real (not perceived, like prefering Apple's control that you do not really lose since you can have the option - even by default - stick with Apple, i mean actually real) positives for anyone involved outside of Apple. But the negatives is currently for the users not being in control over the devices they bought (i really cannot fathom how people are fine with that, every response i've read here really sounds like Stockholm syndrome) and in the future having a precedent for other companies to follow - thus affecting not only the people who use Apple now, but also people of the future (also many people taking a "let's see first the bad stuff happening and then we might judge and take some actions" is a problem by itself - by the time this is commonplace it will be way too late to take any real action).

And besides, what different organizations exploring what different tradeoffs? Right now the only practical options are Apple and Android, there aren't really that many options as to have a healthy environment and Google isn't immune to making decisions that can have an overall negative impact to the control that people have over the stuff they buy (see their Stadia console as an example and how it completely and absolutely removes any notion of control from people buying games - not even consoles, let alone PCs, feature such loss of control).

Re:Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite... by wcarey on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @03:27PM (#24286256)
Perhaps an opportunity to cultivate some empathy and listen carefully to people whose relationship with computational devices is very different from yours. Telling people that their concerns are imaginary isn't a good way to persuade them.

I know people who break from what you call the practical options in both directions -- some who reject smartphones altogether and live their lives without them, doing all their digital work on computers that they have full control over -- and some who use only the stock apps on their phone and wish that app stores were not a thing. They want an entirely managed experience.

Neal Stephenson's essay In the Beginning was the Command Line gets at some of this nicely. Some people are, as he says, Eloi and some Morlocks. That's OK.

Re:Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite... by scarface74 on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @12:42PM (#24273214)
Zoom works on the web and when I did install the app, I installed it on my iPad. I wouldn’t let Zoom go anywhere near my computer.
Re:Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite... by wcarey on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @04:18PM (#24275629)
Alas for the lack of breakout rooms when hosting from an iPad.
Re:Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite... by scarface74 on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @04:25PM (#24275707)
Yes. That bit my wife. She loved her iPad but we ended up getting a laptop solely for Zoom and zoom rooms for some volunteer work she does.

Off topic rant: I was going to get her Dell. I had forgotten how bad the consumer Dells were. By the time you get a decent one, you might as well get a MacBook Air.