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Re:Microsoft Statement in Support of Epic [pdf] by quelsolaar on Sunday August 23, 2020 @08:05PM (#24256388)
I'm extremely surprised that Apple would engage in something that could in court be perceived as retaliatory against someone who is filing a complaint regarding anti competitive behavior.

The definition of anti trust is to use your position in one market to gain an unfair advantage in an other market. By denying Epic access in the game engine market, Apple is trying to get Epic to fold in the game distribution market. Thats text book antitrust behavior.

It is shocking to me that Apples lawyers, would allow Apple to so blatantly threaten Epic in this way. They are providing a clear example of anti competitive behavior, for Epic to use in future litigation. You would think Apple has good enough lawyers to put a stop to this self defeating behavior.

Re:Microsoft Statement in Support of Epic [pdf] by nodamage on Monday August 24, 2020 @03:55PM (#24264778)
> The definition of anti trust is to use your position in one market to gain an unfair advantage in an other market.

Your definition is missing a key point, which is you have to possess sufficient market power in the primary market in order to use to gain an advantage. If you lack market power, it doesn't matter what you do because you lack the ability to coerce consumers. As the Supreme Court put it:

If one of a dozen food stores in a community were to refuse to sell flour unless the buyer also took sugar it would hardly tend to restrain competition in sugar if its competitors were ready and able to sell flour by itself. (Northern Pac. R. Co. v. United States)

> It is shocking to me that Apples lawyers, would allow Apple to so blatantly threaten Epic in this way. They are providing a clear example of anti competitive behavior, for Epic to use in future litigation.

Epic violated the terms of Apple's developer agreement by deliberately hiding their payment processing code to get it past app review. Hiding functionality is considered an egregious violation of the developer program and grounds for termination of your entire account. Apple has the right to terminate their contract for that violation alone, regardless of whether you think the terms relating to in-app purchases are lawful or not.

Framing this as retaliatory or a threat is hyperbole. One party violated the terms of a contract, so the other party is exercising their right to terminate.

> You would think Apple has good enough lawyers to put a stop to this self defeating behavior.

Do you really think you have a better grasp of antitrust law than their legal team?

Re:Microsoft Statement in Support of Epic [pdf] by myhf on Monday August 24, 2020 @07:21PM (#24266602)
>Do you really think you have a better grasp of antitrust law than their legal team?

Obviously Apple's legal team does not understand antitrust law. It is impossible to get someone to understand something, when their salary depends upon not understanding it.

Re:Microsoft Statement in Support of Epic [pdf] by lucifirius on Monday August 24, 2020 @09:55PM (#24267485)
So no, you don't have a better grasp of antitrust law than the Apple legal team. If they thought they were in the wrong they wouldn't do any of this.

It's such a stupid trope in any case.

Re:Microsoft Statement in Support of Epic [pdf] by DethNinja on Sunday August 23, 2020 @08:52PM (#24256658)
Technically, Apple is completely in the wrong here and in any country with a sane justice system they would lose this case due to blatant anticompetitive behaviour.

However, Apple is also one of the largest companies of USA and a quite successful one. At that size they must have considerably good lobbying efforts, political class might also have connections to Apple through shares etc. They might go and say that enabling third party vendors will cause thousands to lose their jobs at Apple. They basically got a huge amount of political influence and I’m sure they will use it for this case.

How much political influence Epic games have? Zero? Perhaps not zero but definitely not at the level of Apple. Hence, this case might not be a straightforward win for Epic.

It is good though, perhaps some of the fortnite players will understand why antitrust laws are needed and perhaps influence the justice system once they grow up.

Re:Microsoft Statement in Support of Epic [pdf] by s279 on Monday August 24, 2020 @09:49AM (#24260602)
Why should a court intervene in the contracting of two private parties? Epic started this fight by intentionally breaching an existing contract with Apple, only so they can get better terms.

Microsoft does the same as Apple, it makes money off micro-transactions and the ability for its competitors to sell on Xbox/Microsoft store, use trade dress, and be included in those hideous green media cases.

Last I checked Epic, Steam, Origin, uPlay, Google, Amazon, SetApp, most retailers, etc... do the same practice to varying degrees. Shrewd business practice != injustice/anticompetitive practices, just because a company has a large market share or is personally abhorrent to you.

Re:Microsoft Statement in Support of Epic [pdf] by gizmo686 on Monday August 24, 2020 @10:49AM (#24261213)
The entire purpose of civil courts is to mediate disputes between private parties. Courts are also the mechanism that give private contracts any authority.

Civil suits are also one of the mechanisms by which government regulation is enforced. The alternative to that would be the government inserting itself into private relations even when there is no dispute between the parties; which is even more heavy handed (albeit somewhat justified).

It is a weird quark that you often have to violate the terms of a contract in order to get standing to challenge it; but that is the procedural rules we have.

Re:Microsoft Statement in Support of Epic [pdf] by WorldMaker on Monday August 24, 2020 @01:08PM (#24262749)
The weird quirks are acerbated by Arbitration clauses designed to keep disagreements from ever going to court and instead being handled by "closed door, opaque third party negotiators". Until Apple closed the contract indicating a breach, Epic would have been forced to go to Arbitration to settle the matter, rather than get their day in court.
Re:Microsoft Statement in Support of Epic [pdf] by slaymaker1907 on Monday August 24, 2020 @03:51PM (#24264729)
Good point, and I assume that mediators probably can’t consider anti-trust matters while courts can.
Re:Microsoft Statement in Support of Epic [pdf] by s279 on Monday August 24, 2020 @03:47PM (#24264689)
I understand, but disagree. They didn’t need to violate the contract for creation of a lawsuit. Hell, they could have terminated their agreement and try to contract with apple without accepting the default agreement.

They had standing the whole time, albeit with a limitation to arbitration at first instance for certain claims, which may have been bypassed on certain grounds anyway.

The temporary restraining order (injunction) application claims they want to be able to post Fortnite on the App Store without scrutiny from Apple and lastly that they regain access to a working developer account for unreal engine.

I recommend watching the virtual legality series on this topic which might interest you on the ins and outs of the legal dispute. The latest episode covering Microsoft is here: https://youtu.be/-jXJjllz00I

Edit: spelling.

Re:Microsoft Statement in Support of Epic [pdf] by quelsolaar on Sunday August 23, 2020 @09:05PM (#24256707)
I agree. I wrote a long thing about it: https://twitter.com/EskilSteenberg/status/129752027579013939...

I think Epic has been smart to do a lot of PR on this. They need public support since this will become political. I'm surprised that Epic hasn't filed in the EU too.

Re:Microsoft Statement in Support of Epic [pdf] by kick on Sunday August 23, 2020 @11:44PM (#24257370)
Technically,

You're using this word wrong.

Re:Microsoft Statement in Support of Epic [pdf] by swiley on Monday August 24, 2020 @03:44PM (#24264650)
It’s good for iPhone users though. Hopefully we’ll finally be allowed to compile apps ourselves and install them without approval (and without having to reinstall them every few days.)
Re:Microsoft Statement in Support of Epic [pdf] by misnome on Monday August 24, 2020 @03:46PM (#24264676)
> The definition of anti trust is to use your position in one market to gain an unfair advantage in an other market

What is the "other market" in this scenario?

Re:Microsoft Statement in Support of Epic [pdf] by eqtn on Monday August 24, 2020 @03:03AM (#24258141)
Then Epic should have gone to the court without pulling the stunt
Re:Microsoft Statement in Support of Epic [pdf] by s279 on Monday August 24, 2020 @09:49AM (#24260606)
Agreed!