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Re:Germany begins 3-year universal-basic-income trial by slg on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @02:11PM (#24213825)
As a general supporter of UBI, I'm not sure there is any way to actually test UBI without just implementing it at full scale. The U is an important part of it and like you said the expectation of permanence is crucial to seeing a change in long term planning and behaviors.
Re:Germany begins 3-year universal-basic-income trial by notahacker on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @02:42PM (#24214362)
The closest thing we've got to a full scale implementation is the state pension system, and various related natural experiments like 'does raising the pension age make people of that age group more likely to continue working'. It's obviously also far from a perfect experiment due to people at the bottom of the pension age bracket being somewhat different from the median working age person, but there's a reason why UBI advocates won't derive any conclusions from it at all...
Re:Germany begins 3-year universal-basic-income trial by ghaff on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @03:28PM (#24215070)
My mostly anecdotal observation is that many people with US military pensions for example do tend to time retirements around pensions. But I don't know the numbers. I would assume that there have been studies related to how many people actually retire after 20 years where, I believe, they get 50% of their pay. (And what they do when they retire.) I'm not aware of such studies but I would think there's some insight there.

The main flaw is that one of the concerns with UBI is that many people might never start working and by the time they realize that UBI isn't enough, it may be too late. OTOH, someone who has been in the military for 20 years may well decide to retire early but that's a different situation.

Re:Germany begins 3-year universal-basic-income trial by ip26 on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @02:31PM (#24214168)
I figure we are only ever going to get a real answer when either some very wealthy government (Norway?) or deeply troubled government (Greece?) decides to chance the country on it.
Re:Germany begins 3-year universal-basic-income trial by ghthor on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @02:13PM (#24213855)
Test it in production.
Re:Germany begins 3-year universal-basic-income trial by jpxw on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @02:16PM (#24213897)
... which is a terrible idea
Re:Germany begins 3-year universal-basic-income trial by slg on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @02:18PM (#24213932)
That is how a decent chuck of macroeconomics works. There are some things that exist at such a scale that you can't accurately experiment with them. You can only theorize, run models or simulations, and observe real world results after implementation.
Re:Germany begins 3-year universal-basic-income trial by JorgeGT on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @02:30PM (#24214156)
This is the main issue of macroeconomics as a science. There is not a "control Germany" subjected to the same history that the actual one, that can be observed in parallel to ascertain if a macroeconomic policy is beneficial or not.
Re:Germany begins 3-year universal-basic-income trial by thelean12 on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @02:29PM (#24214126)
The problem is that anything besides regulated capitalism with some social features built in has utterly failed. And when it fails, it fails HARD.

So implementing something so drastic without knowing if it'll work is extremely risky.

Re:Germany begins 3-year universal-basic-income trial by slg on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @02:50PM (#24214492)
>The problem is that anything besides regulated capitalism with some social features built in has utterly failed. And when it fails, it fails HARD.

Would you say that every country on the planet is either "capitalism with some social features built in" or is currently failing hard? And if all those systems are capitalistic, what specifically pushes UBI over the edge into being something that isn't capitalism? From an implementation perspective, UBI is simply an adjustment of the income tax rate including allowing that rate to be negative. It has nothing to do with ownership, markets, or many of the other mainstays of capitalism.

Re:Germany begins 3-year universal-basic-income trial by dragonwriter on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @03:49PM (#24215359)
> Would you say that every country on the planet is either "capitalism with some social features built in" or is currently failing hard?

Yes, if by the overcomplicated first description you mean modern mixed economies (which are more accurately descended from capitalism than actual capitalism), and those groups overlap, too.

> And if all those systems are capitalistic, what specifically pushes UBI over the edge into being something that isn't capitalism?

Nothing, it's well-within the broad outline of the modern mixed economy.

> From an implementation perspective, UBI is simply an adjustment of the income tax rate including allowing that rate to be negative. It has nothing to do with ownership, markets, or many of the other mainstays of capitalism.

I think it's debatable whether downward redistributive taxation/spending does or does not conflict with mainstays of capitalism (I think it doesz in a good way), but in any case that's a feature of modern mixed economies generally, and UBI isn't really a difference in kind. Where UBI perhaps is more at odds with capitalism than traditional mixed economy welfare programs is in weakening the divide between the chronically excluded and the working class (the lumpenproletariat and the proletariat, to use the Marxist terms), which I think is arguably an important feature of capitalism that is underappreciated specifically because Marxist-inspired socialists don't usually directly address it, especially in a transitional rather than revolutionary concept, because they viee empowering the lumpenproletariat as dangerous because they view that class as prone to recruitment as paid agents, though not actual class allies, of the bourgeoisie while not being effectively organizable against the bourgeoisie.

Re:Germany begins 3-year universal-basic-income trial by nemothekid on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @03:00PM (#24214657)
Why is UBI the thing that plunges us into full blown socialism, and not the myraid of other social safety nets?
Re:Germany begins 3-year universal-basic-income trial by thelean12 on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @04:13PM (#24215694)
I didn't call it socialism. It's certainly not full blown socialism. All I'm saying is that it's a massive, risky change.

The current social safety nets are not as drastic as something like a $1400/mon stipend for everyone in the country (as Germany is trying). That's $5 trillion a year in the US. That over doubles spending right there.

In 2019 the US federal government had $3.5 trillion in revenues and $4.4 trillion in spending. Add another $5 trillion -> $9.4 trillion in spending with $3.5 trillion in revenues. We'd have to almost triple our revenues!

I know there are plans to pay for it, and it's probably possible. But you can't deny that it is drastic.

It's very dangerous to implement such drastic changes to the economy. And the consequences of getting it wrong are horrific.

Re:Germany begins 3-year universal-basic-income trial by wenc on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @04:08PM (#24215618)
Not true.

Testing in production (with rollbacks and safeguards) is actually how things are done in many endeavors in life, especially with processes that are reversible or where the cost of mistakes are bounded. Reality is a better teacher than a simulation. This it not to put down tests -- it has its place -- but in complex systems, it's impossible to have comprehensive coverage. Stochastic things show up in real life that never show up in tests.

In software, you just keep building up your test suite. In complex stochastic systems, you'll have a much harder time building tests.

Software people have a notion that the world should be TDD-driven, but it doesn't really work like that.

Re:Germany begins 3-year universal-basic-income trial by kube-system on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @03:39PM (#24215232)
Unfortunately, we don't have a test environment. And the last time we tried to make one, it became a case-study in an ethics textbook.
Re:Germany begins 3-year universal-basic-income trial by read_if_gay_ on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @02:16PM (#24213895)
I imagine a permanent study with a few hundred people is still a lot easier to implement than permanent UBI for everyone.
Re:Germany begins 3-year universal-basic-income trial by slg on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @02:21PM (#24213991)
A permanent study would allow you to observe behavioral changes among that group of people, but it won't provide insight into the societal changes. For example, what is UBI's impact on inflation and would it result in inflation that negates some or all the benefit of UBI? Or will a society with UBI still be able to fill that society's less desirable jobs in a financially sustainable way?
Re:Germany begins 3-year universal-basic-income trial by read_if_gay_ on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @04:07PM (#24215611)
It'd still net us more information though. If it works out at least the permanency aspect is answered, and if it doesn't, then maybe we need to reconsider UBI fundamentally.