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Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by benbreen on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @04:34PM (#24204027)
From the OP: "On the other hand, we often hear reports of people uncovering old things that others had confidently predicted would never be found. Which makes many suspect widespread overconfidence in claims about what we know can’t be there, because if so we would have seen them already."

Hanson here appears to be backing up his claim with three hyperlinks. One thing that troubles me about rationalist-affiliated writing is that it tends to rest on what looks, at first glance, like a decent evidence base, but this evidence often breaks down under a little scrutiny. For example:

• Hanson's first link is to a recent National Geographic article that summarizes an archaeology finding from Bronze Age China. The summary is, IMO, misleading in one key respect. It calls the find "astonishing" because "parts" of the site "date back 4,300 years, nearly 2,000 years before the oldest section of the Great Wall—and 500 years before Chinese civilization took root on the Central Plains." The Great Wall reference is a non sequitur: it's a bit like saying that a find from the Old Kingdom of Egypt is astonishing because it dates back to two thousand years before the building of a Roman aqueduct. There's no real connection, and it's not at all news that agricultural civilizations existed in China circa 2300 BCE. Whether we want to call these societies "Chinese civilization" or not is debatable. But this finding, while really interesting and cool, is very different from what Hanson seems to be reading it as -- which is to say, as evidence for the belief that future discoveries might yield signs of "advanced civilizations" which far predate the Bronze Age as it's currently imagined. After all, in 2300 BCE, written records and urbanized societies already existed in a fairly large swathe of Eurasia.

• His second link is simply to the Wikipedia page for Göbekli Tepe. Which is a totally fascinating site, I agree. It certainly does have unique features, such as the megalithic carvings. But again, it is not evidence of an entirely unknown "advanced" civilization; instead, the people who built Göbekli Tepe clearly fit into the existing archaeological record relating to the Neolithic Near East. We've known for some time that early agricultural societies were emerging in the fertile crescent around the same time as this site. What's fascinating about this site is that it appears to predate agriculture in the region. However, it is thought to fit into a transitional stage ("Recent DNA analysis of modern domesticated wheat compared with wild wheat has shown that its DNA is closest in sequence to wild wheat found on Karaca Dağ 30 km [20 mi] away from the site, suggesting that this is where modern wheat was first domesticated"). So again, IMO this has nothing to do with his claim about "lost" civilizations which don't fit into our existing chronology.

• The final link is to a Nature write-up from two years ago relating to a contested claim about when humans arrived in the Americas. Again, this has nothing to do with evidence for an "advanced civilization" that has previously not been discovered.

All three of these links reference really interesting and important work which I very much hope continues to be funded and elaborated on. I'm convinced that there are incredible mysteries in store in the future, especially in the field of underwater archaeology. Yet to my reading, none of these reports relate to phenomena that scholars "confidently predicted would never be found." Any archaeologist or historian with a sense of humility will gladly admit that there are a huge number of unknowns in the historical record. None of this can be leveraged as a basis for the existence of "lost advanced civilizations" (by which he appears to mean agricultural or otherwise technologically-advanced civilization that far predate the Agricultural Revolution as its currently understood, and which were forgotten after some kind of hypothetical period of decline).

For that, you need what Hanson waves away: actual archaeological or historical evidence.

Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by barrkel on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @05:02PM (#24204303)
Hanson is very skilled at asking questions whose answers end up confirming his biases.

I follow him on Twitter. It's quite remarkable how he structures his frequent polls, and subsequently uses them to confirm his priors, when the limited choice of questions funnel responses into Hanson's favoured response vs a series of straw man positions, with no catch all "other" to gather disagreement even from the choir that follow him.

The best thing about him is that his dubious evidence does sometimes support an interesting perspective; it gives him ammo to stick to a possibly unpopular position, which might even be true, or have sufficient truth value to merit thinking about.

Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by thom on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @06:05AM (#24208808)
Overfitting, fast and slow.
Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by pmichaud on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @08:27PM (#24205920)
For what it's worth, I was the ED of the Center for Applied Rationality for a couple years, and I have basically the same criticism of the culture. You could fairly summarize a lot of conversations I've had as "Your study sucks, and anyway it doesn't say what you think it says." I do think there are a lot of smart people who "rationalist-affiliated" who get this more right than wrong though.
Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by enjeyw on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @09:39PM (#24206333)
That's what drew me to the idea of 'lesswrong'; an acknowledgement that we all kinda suck at this and your argument is almost certainly wrong in some way, but if we approach with good intentions and open minds, at least the arguments will be _interesting_.
Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by causality0 on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @12:35AM (#24207167)
LessWrong is another altar at which your worship should include a grain of salt. They have quite a lot of great articles but they often fail to do a sanity check when their conclusions become ridiculous. See also, the Roko's basilisk stupidity.
Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by a1369209993 on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @03:56AM (#24208176)
That is as true or more of every altar[0], so I'm not sure what your point is.

0: "Worship me without salt or die!" is a reason to engage in premeditated deicide, not worship.

Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by causality0 on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @03:09PM (#24214771)
Reading the articles it's very easy to get an impression that LessWrong is a "best of the best" community.
Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by a1369209993 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @10:28AM (#24223626)
They are. But that's a very depressing statement about everyone else. About them it's more damning with faint praise.
Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by andrewmutz on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @05:17PM (#24204453)
But by your own quote, he is not presenting these as evidence of advanced civilizations. He is presenting these examples as evidence of "old things that others had confidently predicted would never be found".
Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by benbreen on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @05:28PM (#24204561)
Right, and I'm arguing that none of these cited articles are valid evidence for that claim. Leaving aside the fact that his vague wording gives him enormous wiggle room, i.e. "others" could refer to anything from professional archaeologists to the Ancient Aliens guy and "old things" could mean almost anything.
Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by prox on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @03:29AM (#24208027)
This is why a I think it is a bad article. He first proposes some far-outlier theories, which need extraordinary proof as he acknowledges himself. He does not give it in the article which propels his theory in the realm of fantasy. His article would be way more honest if he would describe it as pure speculation, instead of shoehorning all kinds of finds or theories into his flight of fancy.

I mean it is a fantastical idea, and if we ever find a laptop from 10000bc I would be stunned, or if we find marsian burial chambers, but the probability just isn’t very high on what we observed sofar.

That isn’t to say a lot is lost to history, which skews our interpretation, especially prehistorical, but that would warrant a different kind of article.

Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by LargoLasskhyfv on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @10:39AM (#24210826)
Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by pmayrgundter on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @09:23PM (#24206243)
A megalithic site, especially of that size, is the evidence of an advanced stone age civilization.

Surprisingly, one existed thousands of years before what was long considered the oldest, the Egyptian pyramid builders.

Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by AlotOfReading on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @09:53PM (#24206416)
Uruk also predated the pyramids by a couple millennia and has been known for a pretty good while. Archaeologists also don't use the three-age typology (or the word "advanced" if possible) anymore.

The surprise of gobekli-tepe is mostly in demonstrating once and for all that monumental construction isn't limited to fully sedentary peoples and doing so in a way the diffusionists can't argue with.

Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by SpicyLemonZest on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @05:23PM (#24204512)
Sure, but Hanson seems to be taking a stronger position here than "well maybe". He's proposing that we should set up prizes so people are incentivized to always be on the lookout for older civilizations.
Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by _jal on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @11:39PM (#24206917)
Indirectly, that's the funniest part of his whole schtick. He seems to segment the world in two: things addressable by pure reasoning, and things that require doing something.

He treats the former as his domain and clearly sees himself as a master thereof. And the latter you solve with bounties.

Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by 082349872349872 on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @04:16AM (#24208281)
The Critique of Pure Prediction Markets by Immanuel Köd (1781):

> "That all our knowledge begins with bounties there can be no doubt. For how is it possible that the faculty of cognition should be awakened into exercise otherwise than by means of payouts which validate our judgements, and partly of themselves produce rationales, partly rouse our powers of understanding into activity, to compare to connect, or to separate these, and so to convert the raw material of our sensuous impressions into a knowledge of objects, which is called experience?"

Edit: wow, what is SFW Rule 34 called? this is a thing. http://kenfeinstein.blogspot.com/2011/01/kant-on-betting-and...

Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by bryanrasmussen on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @12:57AM (#24207251)
Isn't he always on the lookout for older civilizations?
Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by seesawtron on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @02:47AM (#24207843)
Have you guys checked out the episode on JRE with Graham Hancock? [0] They talk about the Bronze Age China and Göbekli Tepe. At the time I was seemingly convinced why the academic community wouldn't let these new theories flourish despite the archeological evidence. I was not aware of the work by Hanson so I can not comment on that.

A similar thread on HN in the past [1].

[0] https://youtu.be/aDejwCGdUV8 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23761252

Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by resters on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @11:20AM (#24211266)
I think you are taking those links as an overly important part of Hanson's argument.

His point is that if we consider where life originated without any a priori assumptions, Mars could be viewed (based on some existing theories) as a more likely place of origin than Earth.

He's simply peeling back some of the existing (and often immovable) theoretical layers that filter our perception of the underlying reality and asking whether any of those layers might be reasonably discarded.

In a way this is the same point made by Kuhn about the calcification and cultural embeddedness of scientific authority.

He then notes that we humans seem to have a bias in which we eagerly rule out explanations that turn out to be true, and wonders how we might overcome this.

He proposes a prediction market mechanism that would allow for probability-weighted odds-making while also allowing for profits to be extracted by those whose knowledge is not widely shared; in effect an incentive for structured investigative behavior toward answering a series of deep and related questions.

It's not that Hanson believes archaeologists lack humility, just that the questions that are considered most interesting and the analytical approaches that are the most culturally rewarded may result in a landscape that prevents us from understanding an (obvious?) deeper truth.

I think that to appreciate Hanson's method of argument you must adopt a view of science as a collection of imperfect models and humans as irrational monkeys playing with the models and often overlooking valuable inferences and insights.

Put another way, under what circumstances would one of Hanson's proposed prediction markets fail to achieve equilibrium (liquidity)? Your analysis would suggest that you would bet $0.99p or $0.01p on any of the contracts and happily await reality to prove Hanson foolish. That's the point of such markets, however. Hanson would love to be shown that one of the markets he suggests had that quality, as the price would be valuable information about the robustness of the underlying constructs.

Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by bryananderson on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @02:32PM (#24214186)
> One thing that troubles me about rationalist-affiliated writing is that it tends to rest on what looks, at first glance, like a decent evidence base, but this evidence often breaks down under a little scrutiny.

This is very true, and the rationality community has plenty of its own sacred cows (prediction markets are a great example) which this type of “evidenceyness” is used to confirm all the time.

Every community is bound to have blind spots and biases. Perhaps there is nothing more important than critical thinking to avoid building a community around.

Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by jeswin on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @01:41AM (#24207491)
> From the OP: "On the other hand, we often hear reports of people uncovering old things that others had confidently predicted would never be found. Which makes many suspect widespread overconfidence in claims about what we know can’t be there, because if so we would have seen them already."

What percentage of confident predictions about old things were eventually disproved (by uncovering old things)? Poor article with little data.