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Re:Modeling a Wealth Tax by zaroth on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @11:33AM (#24199914)
Think about how hard Founders work to efficiently divide up the equity pool of their company in order to entice and retain top talent. Consider that the State and Federal government is already a silent partner to the tune of ~20% of the company profits, and then again ~20% on capital gains. Every little bit more carved out for the government is just reducing the portion left which has to justify the risk/return proposition.

There's another problem which I'm surprised PG didn't address. Liquidity. A wealth tax means valuing property before it's even perhaps practical to sell it, and while the government might take your last 409a valuation as the means to valuing your net worth, they aren't accepting your shares as payment, only cold hard cash.

If you have a large private holding, now you are forced to find ways to throw off cash against that notional value, e.g. by arranging loans against your holdings to pay the tax man. Shares that ultimately never sell could end up being taxed for more then they are ever even worth.

Re:Modeling a Wealth Tax by epistasis on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @12:08PM (#24200418)
> and while the government might take your last 409a valuation as the means to valuing your net worth, they aren't accepting your shares as payment, only cold hard cash.

There aren't any wealth taxes of this nature on the books in the US, so assuming that they will only take cash and not shares is premature.

But I think you raise a good point that payment in shares is far more tenable, and likely probably, for highly illiquid economic assets.

Re:Modeling a Wealth Tax by lostdog on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @03:11PM (#24202968)
AMT still applies to illiquid gains and can bankrupt people. They still haven't fixed this.
Re:Modeling a Wealth Tax by gnopgnip on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @12:52PM (#24201019)
The CA wealth tax (that is only .4% a year) addresses liquidity. The taxes can be delayed until there is a sale for illiquid assets.
Re:Modeling a Wealth Tax by dpoochieni on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @02:03PM (#24201993)
Ooof that sounds like a big loophole. What would prevent me from establishing a new entity (I the inheritor, control), having it buy assets from the old one for pennies on the dollar and then sell the old entity for a nominal amount?
Re:Modeling a Wealth Tax by gnopgnip on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @07:30PM (#24205556)
The tax is assessed based on what you own each year, not only on the final "sale" amount
Re:Modeling a Wealth Tax by dalbasal on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @12:03PM (#24200332)
IMO, the honest way to think of a wealth tax is as am implied income tax. That is, a tax on the implied income from wealth. Instead of calculating CGT, which doesn't work very well in practice, just tax the wealth.

This avoids all the problem incentive structure, and even worse tax code structure dealing with the fact that some years you make a return and in other years you make a loss.

Liquidity is solvable, if we're actually talking about a super wealthy tax with a floor of $50m and above. At that point, you are dealing with people individually.

In terms of "reducing the portion left which has to justify the risk/return proposition..." I don't think this applies. You have $1bn. You owe $10m in taxes. You owe that tax regardless of what you invest in, conservatively or otherwise.

It even solves some of that problem, if it replaces CGT. A CGT without loopholes (doesn't exist, and won't) disincentivizes risk. If you win big, you pay big. But of you lose, the IRS doesn't pay you. That incentivizes playing it safe.

IRL tax credits exist, and those more than compensate big CGT payers. In some famous example (eg Trump) derivative policies are big money generators. IE, invest for tax credit, not market gains.

Re:Modeling a Wealth Tax by zozbot234 on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @12:05PM (#24200378)
The implied income from wealth is zero, because e.g. $10 being spent ten years from now is less valuable than $10 being spent today, in a way that - in expectation - accounts precisely for the apparent "income" yielded by $10 (as 'wealth') over ten years.
Re:Modeling a Wealth Tax by zxcmx on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @01:53PM (#24201852)
Billionaires don't hold cash, they hold assets. Property, shares, anything that throws off revenue or grows in value.
Re:Modeling a Wealth Tax by zozbot234 on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @02:11PM (#24202109)
Sure, but that seemingly-extra "revenue" or "growth" is not free - it comes with offsetting risks. Should people be taxed merely because they made a risky bet that happened to pay off for them?
Re:Modeling a Wealth Tax by zxcmx on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @03:14PM (#24203008)
Nothing in this world is risk-free, because the world is inherently uncertain. Holding cash is also risky. We can calculate a risk free rate of return however, and we can also look at historical returns and rates wealth growth to estimate what a "fair" rate might be.

But since this is really a "should" question (aka about values), theres not really a right answer. We can mostly just talk about fairness, of which there are many different conceptions.

My take: Society has to work hard to preserve the billionaire's wealth. You can't be king without an army, and billionaires exist because of laws, police and a social fabric that lets them keep owning so much stuff. You would otherwise have to be a warlord to keep your hands on so much, and that has its own costs and risks.

Perhaps we could look at it as a fee or compensation for the aggregate social guard labour required to preserve the social order that ensures the safety of the billionaire's assets.

Re:Modeling a Wealth Tax by Mirioron on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @04:00PM (#24203626)
What happens when some of those billionaires band together and decide that they are better at defending what they have? It'll result in governments being overthrown or the billionaires leaving for somewhere else.

Billionaires are still people. If they become too unsatisfied with their treatment, then they will do something about it. Just like everyone else.

Re:Modeling a Wealth Tax by zxcmx on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @04:26PM (#24203923)
So what I'm suggesting is sort of "user pays" for property rights. Since billionaires have way more property (and associated rights) it's only fair they should pay more for that.

Since I assume you're not literally suggesting that billionaires will arm themselves and I dunno, patrol their golf courses and beaches with rocket launchers, I suppose you are suggesting they buy some island and hire private forces, and I dunno, next they have to move their factories or offices there, and presumably hire workers and provide healthcare and education and retirement...

I guess if billionaire island seems like a really good deal, workers might move there. Without knowing more about (and assuming it doesn't just get annexed) it kinda sounds like Dubai.

Or sure they could try their luck in some other country if they feel safer there. Maybe somewhere that's happy to provide "inequality services" / free guard labour for them.

Re: billionaires taking over government so it works in their interests, this has basically already happened and these kinds of wealth tax proposals are a way to balance billionaires existing with the effort needed to sustain them.

And seriously when you look at the alternatives 0.5% (say) doesn't seem like such a bad deal.

Re:Modeling a Wealth Tax by zozbot234 on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @05:32PM (#24204604)
The most sensible arrangement is to have a consumption tax (the user pays when they take their wealth out of the system) and/or a tax on incomes and rents, but not affecting the pure yield of capital (the user pays when they put wealth into the system).
Re:Modeling a Wealth Tax by garmaine on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @11:56AM (#24200236)
This. The California wealth tax would kill the startup ecosystem in California, simply because every founder dreams of being a unicorn, but being a unicorn puts you in an untenable position of owing a six or seven figure tax bill every year while you have no liquid assets.
Re:Modeling a Wealth Tax by zentiggr on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @12:19PM (#24200583)
Sounds like the bubble would naturally dry up and the "burn the cash, take the payout and run" culture would start to heal.

Having startups that grow profitable, useful things at a healthy pace and that give back a small slice of their overall growth sounds like a pretty stable business model.