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Re:A-Levels: The Model is not the Student by 7952 on Monday August 17, 2020 @07:08AM (#24186063)
I don't understand why they even need to gives these kids a single grade. The biggest consumer of grading are schools, colleges and university anyway. Just make more of the underlying data available to them and let the decide for themselves. And as an employer I think it would be useful to have a more complete picture of the student than just a single grade. All this fiasco does is demonstrate how unnecessarily reductive the whole concept is.
Re:A-Levels: The Model is not the Student by arethuza on Monday August 17, 2020 @07:31AM (#24186197)
University entrance requirements in the UK are pretty much always expressed in terms of sets of grades for A levels (rUK) or Highers (Scotland) - often with additional requirements (e.g. must include maths).

The entire entrance process pretty much uses grades as the first filter - changing that would be a huge amount of work not to mention a lot of people will have conditional offers that are expressed in terms of these grades.

So picking a course at random (Physics at Edinburgh) requires: SQA Highers: AAAA - AAAB or A Levels: AAA - ABB

https://www.ed.ac.uk/studying/undergraduate/degrees/index.ph...

Re:A-Levels: The Model is not the Student by gorgoiler on Monday August 17, 2020 @08:35AM (#24186616)
To re-implement the University application process would indeed be a huge amount of work.

However, the governing principal of Cambridge University, for example, is that all operations are done at a human scale, and I think when you factor in the large numbers of staff whose labour the Universities have access to, it becomes possible.

For a group of applicants for Computer Science at a Cambridge college, for example, you would have a Director of Studies and one or two other staff ranking around 20 applicants for half as many places. (The ratio of applicants to places is much higher prior to interview.) It is a tractable problem to solve, even if for other institutions the process is scaled by 2x/3x (4:1 / 6:1, up to Nottingham’s reputed 13:1) or maybe even more.

An idea we mooted over dinner last night was for these applicant rankings to be fed to UCAS — the University and Colleges Admissions Service — and for UCAS to combine these rankings with the applicant preferences to fill up each course from the top down. No need for grades, just use the desirability metric provided by the institutions.

Grades themselves are a strange beast. By their nature they are different to raw marks. A grade speaks to your ability as part of the entire cohort of examined pupils in that subject. Without the exam, taken nationally under examination conditions, it just doesn’t seem to make sense to refer to grades.

If we called them “exam grades” perhaps the folly of trying to assign them to pupils, who have not actually taken an exam, would be clearer.

(I speak with no real authority, but I am a high school teacher in England.)

Re:A-Levels: The Model is not the Student by rcxdude on Monday August 17, 2020 @09:46AM (#24187154)
What's more, the people involved in the application process know the reputation of schools as well, both in respect to what kind and how much bias they have in terms predicted grades and in terms of how much the school tends to 'teach the test' or otherwise be good at grooming their students to get good grades or perform well at the interview, so a student who does well in grades or interview from an underfunded state school is more likely to get an offer than a pupil with equivilent results from a high-performing public school

There's still a substantial bias in offers towards public schools, but a lot of that is because such schools are selective like the universities, actual student ability does still matter and better schools still improve student ability more, and there's a strong self-selection of candidates for top universities (a lot of people who might get accepted for oxbridge don't apply because they don't think they have a chance) as opposed to old-school elitism in the application process. (Not that all of the above factors are actually fair from a grand socioeconomic viewpoint, but they are reasonably fair in as much as the university judging the merits of the applicants it gets).

Re:A-Levels: The Model is not the Student by arethuza on Monday August 17, 2020 @09:28AM (#24186998)
Doesn't Oxbridge interview a lot of people very year anyway - so they are already geared up to a process that appears to be pretty different, and more labour intensive, than other institutions?
Re:A-Levels: The Model is not the Student by NLips on Monday August 17, 2020 @12:37PM (#24188851)
Yes. Holding interviews at each of Oxford and Cambridge are approximately 2 weeks of full time work for tutors, with paid full-time assistance from some students, and with admin from other college and university staff.
Re:A-Levels: The Model is not the Student by timthorn on Monday August 17, 2020 @07:31AM (#24186199)
What underlying data do you want to make available? There's no consistent data collection across the schools, what there is exists for internal use at a school so there's no requirement for it to be to any particular standard or of any particular frequency throughout the course.

It's also a single grade per subject, so the university /employer will usually have 3-5 grades to work with, as well as the broader picture built up from the personal statement/cover letter and interview.

Re:A-Levels: The Model is not the Student by michaelt on Monday August 17, 2020 @09:32AM (#24187036)
> And as an employer I think it would be useful to have a more complete picture of the student than just a single grade.

The current system isn't coping well with COVID-19 but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater here.

The current system is simple, and that means it can be seen to be fair. If studying X at university Y needs grades AAB that's easy to understand and you know it's not biased.

I much prefer that to the American system where every university has an opaque system that purports to look at a complete picture of the student then mysteriously picks white students over Asian students with better grades and can't explain why.

Re:A-Levels: The Model is not the Student by maxehmookau on Monday August 17, 2020 @09:56AM (#24187226)
> The current system is simple, and that means it can be seen to be fair. If studying X at university Y needs grades AAB that's easy to understand and you know it's not biased.

If only it were that simple. Universities often also take in to account the outcome of in-person interviews which are inherantly biased.

Re:A-Levels: The Model is not the Student by StevenWaterman on Monday August 17, 2020 @11:13AM (#24188038)
Very few universities still do in-person interviews because of that bias. Only Oxford and Cambridge require them. UCL and Imperial offer them optionally.

Some courses like Medicine do have interviews at institutions that usually don't interview.

Re:A-Levels: The Model is not the Student by toyg on Monday August 17, 2020 @12:06PM (#24188526)
“Only” the two most famous (and arguably best, in a number of fields) institutions. They set the tone.
Re:A-Levels: The Model is not the Student by smcl on Monday August 17, 2020 @01:31PM (#24189490)
They're certainly a good indicator that the class system is alive and well in the UK, but since the rest of the universities rely on the Highers/A-Level results without any interviews I'm not sure what you are implying by "set the tone"
Re:A-Levels: The Model is not the Student by ixfo on Monday August 17, 2020 @11:09AM (#24188000)
And clearing - i.e. what happens to match people to the vacant spaces left by those who didn't make the offer target - is almost 100% interview based, usually by phone and on results day.
Re:A-Levels: The Model is not the Student by 7952 on Monday August 17, 2020 @12:26PM (#24188745)
But as a consumer of grades it is not about fairness. It is a heuristic used to predict future performance. And it is possible for grading to be a bad heuristic whilst also being fair to individual students.
Re:A-Levels: The Model is not the Student by lordnacho on Monday August 17, 2020 @07:45AM (#24186278)
The underlying data is just more grades though, isn't it? How you did on this or that exam, coursework, etc? Minus substantial facts like whether you were ill, your gran died, whether you had tutoring, and so on?

You're right that grades are reductive, but the alterntive isn't more of the same information.

Re:A-Levels: The Model is not the Student by kiplkipl on Monday August 17, 2020 @08:36AM (#24186619)
That passes the buck on to the university addmissions teams. Then it's the same story with Oxbridge as the antagonists.

Fundamentally it's a hard problem: the admissions require more information than is available. But...

> All this fiasco does is demonstrate how unnecessarily reductive the whole concept is.

...there never really was enough information. This is an important factor IMO. The system has always been unfair, now it's less fair and in a colder, more obvious , more systematic way that resonates with the current political climate around technology. Politically it's hard for this government to get away with standing by a policy that adversely affects poor students in the same way it would have been hard for a left-wing government to institute the current fiscal policy.

>kids

Nit: almost all of them are now legally adults. At university they can look forward to this twilight age where they are treated as an adult when it's about financial obligations and treated as a child when it's their institutions forcing policy upon them.

Re:A-Levels: The Model is not the Student by TheOtherHobbes on Monday August 17, 2020 @09:56AM (#24187231)
The Tory line has always been "Work hard and get ahead." It's an outright lie, because the reality has always been "Go to the right school and have the right parents and get ahead."

But much middle class [1] and some working class Tory support still believes in the social status dream, and this fiasco has directly undermined that narrative.

The party is getting huge heat from its base over this, not just because of their future prospects, but because some of them are now wondering if "Work hard and get ahead" has ever been true for them.

[1] Note for the US - in the UK "middle class" specifically means "Highly educated professionals with significant cultural and political capital" not just "People with a degree making decent money."

Re:A-Levels: The Model is not the Student by jfk13 on Monday August 17, 2020 @11:24AM (#24188139)
> The Tory line has always been "Work hard and get ahead." It's an outright lie, because the reality has always been "Go to the right school and have the right parents and get ahead."

But it's not as simple as that, either. Coincidentally, I just read an obituary of John Hume, who was born into poverty in Derry and rose -- through education and hard work -- to become a leading politician and a Nobel prize winner.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/john-hume-o...

Re:A-Levels: The Model is not the Student by maybeOneDay on Monday August 17, 2020 @12:01PM (#24188464)
A single or few data point(s) of less privileged people managing to work hard and become hugely successful is not a valid argument against:

> It's an outright lie, because the reality has always been "Go to the right school and have the right parents and get ahead."

There have been and will always be exceptions, cherry picking a few of these is a form of straw man.

Re:A-Levels: The Model is not the Student by robotresearcher on Monday August 17, 2020 @04:35PM (#24191718)
It's not a single grade. It's a set of usually 3 or 4 grades in subjects the students selected at (US) grade 10 . The choice of subjects contains a lot of information about the students' objectives and the grades show the performance level. The national normalized exam structure is intended to compensate somewhat for large regional and social inequalities. It does not achieve this perfectly, of course.
Re:A-Levels: The Model is not the Student by onei on Monday August 17, 2020 @05:04PM (#24192078)
That's more or less what one of the Oxford colleges did. They realised all grades were guesses and that the information they had when offers were made had not changed quantifiably. So they let all existing offers stand regardless of what grades students were assigned.

I think it's a shame this was the exception rather than the norm.

Re:A-Levels: The Model is not the Student by simonh on Monday August 17, 2020 @08:00AM (#24186382)
The Universities know this and are working with students that missed the required grades to understand what their projected grades, mock results etc were and make a case by case evaluation. It's nowhere near as dire a situation as is being made out.

I watched the news broadcasts when the results were announced. There were TV journalists at schools in deprived areas interviewing students before the grades were released, with the journalists giving dour warnings about the impending problems they expected. When the results were announced the students were leaping about with joy, hugging and celebrating, it was like a world cup win. The journalists didn't seem to know what to say. back in the studio the best the presenter could do was mutter that "I'm sure we'll find some students that were disappointed later".

I'm sure they did.

Re:A-Levels: The Model is not the Student by Traster on Monday August 17, 2020 @08:12AM (#24186449)
Yes, because the kids whose futures just got screwed aren't the ones liable to be jumping around in front of everyone.