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Re:Thank You MDN by merpnderp on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @10:11PM (#24139281)
You should start a business and when you need execs you could just pay them what you think is fair, and with the money you save you’ll dominate the competition. Maybe everyone in the world will notice the key to your success and exec pay will be reduced.
Re:Thank You MDN by manquer on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @10:38PM (#24139418)
Mozilla Corporation is not a typical business and is wholly owned by a Non Profit, it should not be competitive with businesses .

Most non profits ( and investment funds) keep an eye on administrative and management overhead. A well run fund or NGO will keep their administrative overhead as low as possible, most donors/ investors look at this metric.

Legal Aid lawyers / social workers or any number of other professions do not / cannot expect a market competitive salary. why is open source development any different ?

if C-suite is only working at Mozilla because they are getting market competitive salary, perhaps they the wrong hire.

90% of Mozilla Corporation revenue comes from one deal, and this has been the case for 10+ years. All the fancy salaries has not prevented Firefox from losing market share, nothing management has been able to do change this, why should they be paid this much ?

If the management has failed to achieve success as is the case , should not also bear the cost ? or also get laid off/ replaced ?

Re:Thank You MDN by stu2b50 on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @10:37PM (#24139415)
>Airbnb has suspended all of its marketing in an attempt to save $800 million this year. Its founders will also not take any salary for the next six months, and top executives will take a 50 percent pay cut, according to Reuters.

It's one thing to pay market rate for execs who do an excellent job on a rising company for a for-profit, another for a non-profit in decline.

And it's a different thing entirely when it's in a global pandemic and recession. CEOs of FOR PROFIT companies with far more financial success have cut their pay if nothing else as good symbol for the rest of the company.

Re:Thank You MDN by dgb23 on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @10:41PM (#24139440)
There are examples of this. Satoru Iwata comes to mind as a famous one.

Another one would be an ex exec I know personally (who was also a founder). Worked two years straight w/o pay to keep the company afloat.

Oh and there are also worker cooperatives. They are usually very stable and have a much smaller income gap.

> dominate the competition

The people/companies who operate like this usually don't have this as a goal. Quite the opposite. They are typically collaborative and opt for stability and sustainability over everything else.

Re:Thank You MDN by thatcat on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @10:25PM (#24139356)
Once it became successful the people at the top would organize together to raise their own salaries then maintain that even when economic times change, against the interests of the rest of the company.
Re:Thank You MDN by dhosek on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @10:39PM (#24139426)
That's how it works now. C-suite compensation is set by compensation committees composed of—you guessed it—C-suite executives.
Re:Thank You MDN by bscphil on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @10:32PM (#24139392)
You think you're making a point here, but there's a mistake in your reasoning. You're thinking that "fair" pay is whatever allows you to beat the market, and since if Mozilla only paid its c-suite $300k-$500k, it would not (you think) be able to compete with other companies with high paid execs, this proves that whatever they're paying the execs now must be fair.

But ... "fair" pay does not mean the same thing as "whatever is financially best for the company to pay its employees". Take the other end of that bargain: is it fair for Mozilla to pay their janitors a reproduction level wage? Most of us (except the hard core right-wing libertarians) say no, that's why we have a minimum wage (which many of us also think is too low).

The elision of the distinction between "fair" and "whatever the market rewards you for doing" isn't an argument, it's just crass market-worship.

Edit: this post is pretty clearly argued, and downvoting without even a comment is exactly the kind of ideological nonsense that this site simultaneously prides itself on not doing (contra Reddit), and yet hilariously symbolizes.

Re:Thank You MDN by Feolkin on Thursday August 13, 2020 @01:26AM (#24140196)
I wish the site would just get rid of downvotes. Your post is constructive and well-written, doesn't say anything egregiously offensive and isn't trolling and doesn't lack effort. The only reason why you're being downvoted is because some people don't agree on an ideological level. Which is bullshit. You can still respect people who don't share your views, and I wish the site cared to foster that kind of community, instead of promoting another echo chamber.
Re:Thank You MDN by bscphil on Thursday August 13, 2020 @06:16AM (#24141743)
> The only reason why you're being downvoted is because some people don't agree on an ideological level.

It's a very frustrating thing about this site, because, ironically, most people here think of themselves as nearly perfectly rational and open to new ideas, but in fact the opposite is almost always the case. If I think of myself as perfectly rational, that ironically gives me a way to think that anyone who disagrees with me must be trolling or must be saying something obviously wrong, even if I don't take the time to work out what that might be.

I admittedly added that just to complain, expecting it to trigger another wave of downvotes - because frankly, I don't care about getting downvoted. What I care about is how often this site turns into an ideological echo chamber for one of two popular worldviews, and on some level I wanted to try to call attention to that.

Re:Thank You MDN by cabalamat on Thursday August 13, 2020 @02:30AM (#24140545)
> The only reason why you're being downvoted is because some people don't agree on an ideological level.

That's not true, I downvoted the past because it complained at being downvoted.

Re:Thank You MDN by Feolkin on Thursday August 13, 2020 @07:12AM (#24142066)
And you're just as much a part of the problem. You're blindly punishing him for pointing out that the system is unfair und his post is not and was not deserving of downvotes. It has nothing to do with the content of his actual comment. You're not contributing positively in any way. You're just reinforcing that anybody who speaks out or has a different point of view isn't welcome here.
Re:Thank You MDN by jessaustin on Thursday August 13, 2020 @02:31PM (#24146583)
Downvoting complaints about downvotes is an attempt not to have to read complaints about downvotes. But here's another: please don't complain about downvotes!
Re:Thank You MDN by pitay on Thursday August 13, 2020 @10:43AM (#24143832)
Yes, indeed. If you refresh often enough, you will notice the downvotes for a reasonable post come closest to when it is posted, which makes the post fade and gives the impression that something must be wrong with it. I think there is a very good chance this comes from people wanting to suppress information that does not support their position.

On an individual level the thing to do would be to upvote downvoted posts if they make some sense, they don't have to be great to be upvoted.

Re:Thank You MDN by eitland on Thursday August 13, 2020 @12:50AM (#24140033)
Have my upvote. But be aware that the edit at the end will probably trigger the downvote reflex for a number of people here (it did on me too, I just consciously overruled it ;-)
Re:Thank You MDN by Mirioron on Thursday August 13, 2020 @06:24AM (#24141791)
Fair pay is whatever allows you to hire a competent c-suite that will allow the company to fulfill its mission. However, this comes with a whole host of problems. How do you identify those that are likely to be able to do the job? How do you keep them at your company? How do you maximize their effectiveness in their role?

This usually comes down to pay. People who get high compensation offers elsewhere are likely to be good at it, but that means you have to compete with other companies for them. Even if you somehow did manage to find somebody that accepts your below market compensation, what do you do if another company just offers them more? If you pay them near market rate then there's much less incentive for another company to poach them. You're also less likely to end up with somebody that can't do the job.

Re:Thank You MDN by raxxorrax on Thursday August 13, 2020 @03:20AM (#24140787)
If we have a minimum wage, couldn't a maximum wage be constructed within the same realm of arguments?
Re:Thank You MDN by tremon on Thursday August 13, 2020 @05:44AM (#24141548)
Many non-C-level job positions already have a maximum wage, in the form of salary scales. Although not government-mandated, they are all calibrated to the same market, so these scales are comparable between competing companies.
Re:Thank You MDN by Mirioron on Thursday August 13, 2020 @06:12AM (#24141717)
Minimum wage actually came out of maximum wage laws in England. After a plague there was a shortage of laborers, which increased the costs of hiring them. A law was instituted to discourage people paying too much for laborers.
Re:Thank You MDN by pantalaimon on Thursday August 13, 2020 @06:29AM (#24141820)
Usually when you start a business you don’t pay your CEO 2.5 million.

I’d net for most medium sized companies it’s not anywhere near that.

Re:Thank You MDN by schwartzworld on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @10:41PM (#24139441)
ah yes, a foolproof path to change