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Re:Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Softw... by ilaksh on Monday August 10, 2020 @01:27AM (#24105859)
That's completely the wrong comparison and context.

The reason MCAS came about was because management wanted to try to fudge a larger engine into an outdated design created for a different purpose rather than do the engineering and certification necessary for the new requirements and to update the system.

Management wanted to save money. Of course the engineering leadership did not want to fudge something -- they wanted to do proper engineering. But the people in charge just wanted to save money, and the engineering leadership could not do anything otherwise, even they knew that just making the engine larger and compensating did not make sense from an engineering standpoint.

By the time it got to the MCAS, that was far down the line of the decision to not do proper engineering.

Re:Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Softw... by chii on Monday August 10, 2020 @02:01AM (#24106044)
Which demonstrates the irrelevancy of a hippocratic oath for engineers. Because the complexity of the system is such that no single engineer understands it all, and thus no single engineer is (or feels) responsible.

Blaming it on management is also irrelevant, since management merely takes the advice of engineers, and do financial/business trade offs to maximize profit. If the engineers cannot tell that MCAS system could fail this way (due to the complexity), management will not question it.

Re:Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Softw... by kittiepryde on Monday August 10, 2020 @11:22AM (#24110244)
So..

if the engineering leadership said, this is not a good idea. Management said, it saves money.

Engineering failed to convince management. Management didn't have the understanding that it was a bad idea.

It is now, no one's fault?

If management merely takes the advice of engineers ( and other who specialize in the things that they do not ), and they choose to ignore it because they do not understand the things they do not specialize in. I believe it's a reasonable to assume that management is more at fault than engineering ( I'm not sure they're is a situation here where any party is fault less )

Re:Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Softw... by Pocketknife on Monday August 10, 2020 @11:59AM (#24110658)
Management isn't going to question things, even with engineering warning them it's a problem every day.

Management likes hearing things they like, and simply don't hear things they don't like. Then act surprised about it when it becomes public.

Re:Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Softw... by ilaksh on Monday August 10, 2020 @09:08AM (#24108834)
Hippocratic oath for engineers is irrelevant, correct. But management does not take the advice of engineers. As I said, the engineers wanted to do proper engineering, but management wanted to save a buck, so they instructed engineering to fudge a cheap solution.

Its very common.

Re:Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Softw... by moron4hire on Monday August 10, 2020 @07:32AM (#24108106)
That's like saying burglars who break windows demonstrate the irrelevancy of door locks.
Re:Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Softw... by robertlagrant on Monday August 10, 2020 @04:40AM (#24106941)
> That's completely the wrong comparison and context.

By the rest of your comment, it looks as though it's an excellent comparison. How would engineers taking an oath help the situation?

Re:Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Softw... by ilaksh on Monday August 10, 2020 @09:06AM (#24108820)
I'm not saying engineers taking an oath helps, its about the executives.. maybe something about the thread structure implies that but I actually only read the comment above.