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Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by thorwasdfasdf on Thursday August 06, 2020 @02:47PM (#24074148)
Beware: if there are markets that appear uncompetitive, there is a damn good reason for it. And it's never becaues no-one thought to look there. If you do find uncompetitive markets, it'll most likely be because someone has regulatory capture, or there is something preventing new entrants, high barriers to entry, or the cost of user acquisition is simply too high for new entrants.
Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by ChuckMcM on Thursday August 06, 2020 @03:32PM (#24074569)
Okay, this comment reminds me a bit of the economist joke with the $20 bill[1].

But the essence of the comment is spot on, these apparently barren landscapes of competitors often have a cause, and so just finding such a market is only the start of analyzing WHY it seems to be so noncompetitive.

[1] Two economists are walking down the street and one sees a $20 bill on the ground and picks it up. The other asks, "Why did you pick that up? It's clearly counterfeit, if it were a real $20 bill someone else would have already picked it up."

Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by xapata on Thursday August 06, 2020 @06:32PM (#24076130)
That's the efficient market hypothesis.
Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by ChuckMcM on Thursday August 06, 2020 @08:11PM (#24076716)
Like I said, an economist joke. :-)
Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by sloaken on Saturday August 08, 2020 @06:34AM (#24090532)
Not only a good joke, but it demonstrates a reality of thought, which I am often guilty of.
Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by SkyPuncher on Thursday August 06, 2020 @09:18PM (#24077051)
I'll challenge this.

I've found there are a lot of secondary markets that get overlooked by VC. Typically, these markets have (1) a lower ceiling so they're overlooked by VC's needing an outside return. They can still be massively profitable for a bootstrapped or lean company. (2) Require deep knowledge of two non-overlapping subjects.

Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by edoceo on Thursday August 06, 2020 @09:32PM (#24077131)
Anecdata: I've seen three or four companies that look like this, one attracted VC (after proven traction), one was rejected cause (external risk) and the others are a nice tidy business for the founders and a few employees.

Sometimes I hear, pejoratively, a "lifestyle" business.

Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by Jommi on Thursday August 06, 2020 @03:11PM (#24074377)
I think you should still include the temporal factor here.

Yes there might _have_ been a reason for a the market to be competitive, but something might have changed in the past few years that has removed or minimized that reason.

These are the marketing that are ripe for competition.

Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by Joeri on Friday August 07, 2020 @03:00AM (#24079126)
To give an example: I once considered entering the market of doctor appointment software. The existing players in my country all have bad UX, and it seemed relatively easy to build a superior product.

But then on researching it deeper I discovered the basic problem with the market is that doctors won’t pay enough on a monthly basis for a high-touch sales process and they still mostly insist on one or more personal visits before buying the product. So, you basically lose money on every customer for the first year or two, meaning it is really hard to build a sustainable business. I got access to the financials of two of the existing players, and they were not good. They did the minimum investment into the product they could get away with because the market wouldn’t allow for more than that.

Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by tmamic on Friday August 07, 2020 @04:15AM (#24079577)
In the words[1] of @spakhm appointment software for doctors is not a showstopper and definitely not a gamechanger.

I've been researching medical market a lot. There are many reasons why appointment and practice management software isn't a great business. But the number one reason is that it doesn't create a great value for doctors. Patients will still come and use the same doctor, insurance companies will still pay them the same, it won't bring new patients, it will not make it easier for doctor to manage his practice since he still has to have a nurse which does this.

On another hand, it makes it easy for their patients to go somewhere else since EHR need to be completely available to patient. This is an unnecessary risk.

[1] https://www.defmacro.org/2013/09/26/products.html

Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by ozim on Friday August 07, 2020 @04:36AM (#24079715)
This can be nicely compared with booking.com, where hotels get great benefits from the platform. Because market for hotels is so much different. You are not going to look for a doctor on the other side of country.

So if one wants to make an appointment/booking software, would have to look for things that would bring new customers. Helping with discovering places.

Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by PopeDotNinja on Friday August 07, 2020 @01:22PM (#24084338)
In the doctor + booking.com, I’m a digital nomad and absolutely would look up a doctor in NotMyHomeTown. The mild annoyance for me is that doctors usually have an on boarding process that talk on additional time and money to any visit. It’d be wonderful, but quite possibly not practical, to have a medical history that a doctor could access instantly so I don’t have to fill out a bunch of stuff & pay extra. Same for dentists.
Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by ozim on Friday August 07, 2020 @04:30AM (#24079677)
I think this should be upvoted more.

People bash bad UX and buggy software all the time, like "those developers are sooo bad".

What they mostly don't realize that software is only as good as much someone is willing to pay for.

Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by kube-system on Thursday August 06, 2020 @02:54PM (#24074213)
Those are all good points -- I would also imagine that many of the least competitive markets are simply just niche markets. There could be a potential to easily make a 10x product in many of these markets, but the reward is likely not great enough to make that profitable. Although, some people do okay if they're able to make a one-man-shop out of it.
Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by PeterCorless on Thursday August 06, 2020 @07:38PM (#24076555)
"Science Fiction" was niche until Star Wars sort of blew the doors off.

Sometimes it is niche until technology catches up with a need.

Sometimes it is niche until an un-suckful product is actually offered.

Sometimes it is niche until a sudden shift in the entire economy or market.

The shift from horseshoe-clad transportation to a new thing was rapid only after about 20 years of "niche" gas-powered automotive vehicles.

Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by kube-system on Thursday August 06, 2020 @11:52PM (#24078033)
Sure, some things are niche until they aren’t... but some things really are niche and will stay that way.

My first thought was, someone who makes a hard-to-find part for a low volume vehicle. Take, for instance, the original Tesla Roadster. It sold about 2500 units. Maybe they have a problem that happens in 10% of units. You have a maximum of 250 customers, assuming none are scrapped and you provide the only potential solution.

These are the sorts of situations in which you’ll find very little competition. For a lot of people with niche interests there’s always “that one dude on the forums” who is the only person with the solution.

The same kind of situations arise often in enterprise too, and it’s the kind of things that internal teams or contractors might one-off. But, if you make an off-the-shelf product for it, you’ll be the only game in town!

Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by trevett on Friday August 07, 2020 @12:09AM (#24078169)
I think someone should start a thread asking about all the one-offs people have written and see how much duplication there is.
Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by trevett on Thursday August 06, 2020 @03:49PM (#24074729)
Could be nascent markets with a few seed-funded startups trying to serve them. The goal is not to find totally uncompetitive markets but those that are more niche, with a lighter degree of competition, where marketing efforts can be more efficient. The last requirement is that there is an overlap with a larger, adjacent market along a few dimensions.
Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by raverbashing on Thursday August 06, 2020 @04:00PM (#24074832)
Or, some businesses are just not worth it.

You can throw as much business intelligence and automation to, let's say, an Ice Cream truck. It will still be an Ice Cream truck. Nobody is becoming a millionaire with it.

Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by cameron_b on Thursday August 06, 2020 @04:58PM (#24075399)
I think this is a good example of how sometimes we sit in the VC space where you go from $0 MRR to THE MOON or it really doesn't mater. There are a lot of avenues to really significant lifestyle businesses outside of 4 Hour Work Week SaaS Solo Ventures, It is important to remember that sometimes taking the risk back a notch, applying all the same principles, leveraging less, and working hard -- maybe even making a tangible product, like food, say -- can be just as rewarding.
Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by alasdair_ on Friday August 07, 2020 @12:00AM (#24078105)
Not with just a single truck, probably, but a fleet of them with prime locations (like outside major tourist attractions on a hot day) and selling a premium offering for $8 per ice cream? You could probably make pretty good money doing that, especially if you have some kind of secret recipe (sprinkle some crack in every pint!).

You can become a millionaire by scaling up almost any business. I doubt you’d become a billionaire but who cares?

Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by andi999 on Friday August 07, 2020 @06:05AM (#24080272)
I believe some of these very small businesses rely on that the owner (and/or his family) is working below minimum wage; so if this is the case, it cannot scale up.
Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by wtracy on Thursday August 06, 2020 @10:23PM (#24077393)
I'm not so sure about your example.

Get a self-driving truck, and add some sort of people-sensing system that allows potential customers to intuitively flag it down. Then add a self-serve ice cream vending machine.

Now you can build a fleet of ice cream trucks that don't need human operators. I think you could make a few millionaires with that.

My point is not that automated ice cream trucks are the future. My point is that "small" improvements amortized across enough units can be significant.

Now, there's probably a pretty hard ceiling to the amount of income one of these trucks can bring in, so investing in business intelligence or a snazzy customer experience probably isn't a good investment. (Which is probably what parent was imagining.)

But don't underestimate the power of shrinking costs. If you sell a billion screws a year, a one-tenth of a cent improvement in unit manufacturing cost is a million dollars a year.

Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by nmfisher on Friday August 07, 2020 @02:34AM (#24078993)
> Or, some businesses are just not worth it. > You can throw as much business intelligence and automation to, let's say, an Ice Cream truck. It will still be an Ice Cream truck. Nobody is becoming a millionaire with it.

That's probably what people said about coffee and cafes prior to Starbucks.

Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by guiriduro on Friday August 07, 2020 @04:42AM (#24079752)
Starbucks is an essentially American phenomenon. e.g., nobody in Europe ever thought coffee shops needed to become branded chains that set a single product quality expectation, because almost nobody who'd ever visited an Italian/mediterranean-style cafe ever thought they lacked a quality or sociability option to begin with. Sure, some chains exist, but the quality delta between them and the average cafe isn't great enough to scale fast.

Only in a place where coffee is generally awful, and VC money easy, could the concept that became Starbucks ever come into existence.

Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by nmfisher on Friday August 07, 2020 @06:39AM (#24080446)
There's a whole lot factually wrong about your comment (Starbucks started as a single cafe, it wasn't funded by VC, and it started in the 70s/80s when money was far from cheap, and 1/3 of its total outlets are in Asia).

But that's all beside the point. I'm not saying an Italian would be able to replicate Starbucks in Italy. What I'm saying is that there are countless opportunities staring us right in the face, every day, and 99% of people see a cafe and think "it can't scale, it's local demand only, there's no point, why bother", the remaining 1% see Starbucks.

Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by wenc on Friday August 07, 2020 @10:59AM (#24082556)
Just to follow up on that: I'm sure we agree that Starbucks metagame is about selling more than just beverages. It's about selling a middle-class aspiration -- using concepts like a "third place", "Italy", etc. This is why Starbucks is a $24b revenue company and Dunkin is a $1.4b revenue company.

Luigi Zingales, an economist at UChicago, once said, "the fact that Starbucks is not Italian is hurtful. The extreme agency problems of Italy make it difficult to scale firms.".

Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by Animats on Thursday August 06, 2020 @04:55PM (#24075373)
You could have a gamified app which tells kids when the ice cream truck is getting close.
Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by mlacks on Friday August 07, 2020 @01:57AM (#24078821)
Take good photos of product, grow IG following, give tips on how to grow your own ice cream truck business, dev and sell course on how to quit the 9/5 and start your own food truck niche
Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by mlacks on Friday August 07, 2020 @01:59AM (#24078826)
depends on your def of millionaire, but to make 1M you only need to convince 2,000 people that your 500 dollar course will set them free ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by at-fates-hands on Thursday August 06, 2020 @06:17PM (#24076019)
What if the end goal for the business owner isn't to be a millionaire? Maybe he's totally cool with just having a couple of ice cream trucks and clearing 150K in income every year?

Would THAT be worth it then? Maybe not to you, but to the guy who came from a third world country and built his company from nothing and now he's living an upper middle class lifestyle? To that guy it's the essence of the American Dream.

Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by mud_dauber on Thursday August 06, 2020 @07:01PM (#24076322)
Or somebody who's been COVID'd out of corporate life and wants a clean start. Sounds viable to me.
Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by crispyporkbites on Thursday August 06, 2020 @04:04PM (#24074878)
Pretty sure there are quite a few millionnaires who own ice cream trucks.
Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by system2 on Thursday August 06, 2020 @07:48PM (#24076602)
All startups either fail or succeed mostly because of management.
Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by haolez on Thursday August 06, 2020 @02:57PM (#24074243)
What a wonderful meme: "regulatory capture". Words have power! I'll definitely use this.
Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by kube-system on Thursday August 06, 2020 @03:04PM (#24074308)
It's a pretty common political/economic term
Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by haolez on Thursday August 06, 2020 @03:11PM (#24074378)
It's not common in my native language.
Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by travmatt on Thursday August 06, 2020 @03:50PM (#24074736)
It’s an idea that is studied in political economy. If the idea resonates with you there are a lot of discussions around it: https://www.theregreview.org/2016/07/07/lupo-a-resource-list...
Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by kube-system on Thursday August 06, 2020 @03:29PM (#24074532)
Makes sense, I wasn't calling you out, just trying to be helpful.
Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by afarrell on Thursday August 06, 2020 @03:06PM (#24074335)
https://xkcd.com/1053/ sometimes it is nice to bask in the glow of another person's TIL. There is a simple joy to it like the smell of freshly-cut grass.

yes and -- informing someone that the term is more widely used than they might otherwise have known is indeed useful

Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by wenc on Friday August 07, 2020 @09:42AM (#24081674)
Yes to your second sentence. I read kube-system's comment in good faith. It was providing community context.

I once got excited about what I thought was a cool idea (I can't remember what it was, but something along the lines of "black swan theory"). I didn't know how established it was, so I started inserting it in talks with the assumption people didn't already know about it. I belabored its definition and dwelled on it, when in fact people in academic communities had already discussed it in depth, and have moved on to other ideas. No one said anything, but no one engaged with me after my talks and I wondered why.

Looking back, I wished someone had nudged me and explained the context of that idea in those communities. I must have come across as a pseudointellectual (in that particular context). Feedback matters and is helpful when given kindly.

(on "regulatory capture" specifically, I admit I had not heard the term until about a year ago when it came up several times on Tyler Cowen's blog and on HN)

Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by afarrell on Thursday August 06, 2020 @04:16PM (#24074997)
One class of markets that I suspect is a target-rich environment: disability-adaptation tech.

1. There is a decent chance that existing entrants are tied down by a focus on meeting the regulations rather than on delighting users.

2. You might be able to significantly scale-up and thus improve the unit economics.

While the market of people who can pass the means-testing to qualify for whatever government-subsidized benefit exists might be small, the nature of bureaucracy means there is often a MUCH wider pool of people who are "quasi-disabled", either permanently or temporarily.

Note that there are a few disabilities which are so overwhelmingly common that the market is already saturated. The classic example is eyeglasses.

3. The specific disabled population is a ready-made population of early adopters IF you identify that you can keep your focus on delighting users and just use the regulations to remind yourself of risks and edge-cases. (This really will depend quite heavily on the quality of the regulations -- notice the difference between Japanese zoning and SF-bay housing-approvals) Lots of legacy disability tech:

* Has a pretty frustrating maintenance cycle, so you can win on a strong customer service brand IF you can innovate on operations.

* Can be pretty frustrating to use, so you can win big on design.

A focus on delighting users rather than ticking boxes is naturally going to produce a naturally better product. Here is the key tactic though: lean on the early-adopters for high-detail feedback. This problem occupies a much larger proportion of their lives than the average user of a product.

This higher-strength signal of user needs is known as the "Curb Cut Effect". https://thingofthings.wordpress.com/2014/11/15/the-curb-cut-...

This also seems to hint at a good trick to turn any regulatory box-ticking exercise into purpose-driven-design. After all, a focus on privacy-by-design is better than a focus on the letter of GDPR-compliance, right?

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Hilariously, I used to work for a YC company unwittingly building assistive tech for my particular disability. Their Curb Cut effect was so ridiculously strong, they've occasionally written ad copy with reference to a symptom I've experienced and I'm pretty sure they still don't even realize it. Looking back, I now really wish I had been self-confident enough to explicitly disclose -- especially when their CEO started using a wheelchair.

Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by rglovejoy on Thursday August 06, 2020 @05:19PM (#24075574)
The problem here is that the real customers are the health insurance companies, Medicare, and the VA. They don't care about being delighted, they want inexpensive and rugged devices.

That's the problem Dean Kamen had with his iBOT wheelchair. They were very cool and their users loved them, but they went for something like $25,000 each and likely needed frequent maintenance.

Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by refurb on Thursday August 06, 2020 @06:49PM (#24076246)
Yup, if you’ve every watched network TV and seen the “Did you know Medicare will pay for X?” and wondered why, it’s exactly this.

If you want Medicare to pay for a product, you need a positive Coverage Determination. And if you get it, you just opened up a 50M person market (obviously a subset, since not everyone will need it) and all you need is the patient to say to their doctor “I want that” and it’s paid for.

It’s a heavily front loaded business, but if can get reimbursement, it’s basically paid for, you just need customers to ask for it (I’m obviously simplifying, since it varies by product type, but medical equipment is a great example).

Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by wtracy on Thursday August 06, 2020 @10:32PM (#24077430)
Which is why a lot of the real money is in products that have wide appeal for non-disabled users.

This is where most of the bizarre "as seen on TV" products come from: The inventor made a tool for people with disabilities, found that the target market wasn't large enough to sustain a business, and frantically tried to pivot. Pivoting is hard when you already have a large inventory of hard products.

If you can build something that able-bodied people are not only willing to use but willing to pay extra for, then you're good to go.

Re:Ask HN: What are the least competitive consumer and enter... by afarrell on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @07:08AM (#24119115)
yep, this is my argument