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Re:Science and scientific expertise are more important than ... by ohduran on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @12:57PM (#24062972)
Maybe the reason we are in this mess is because we relied too much on science, and too little on actual humanities (rhetoric, logic, and so on)? I hear about hermeneutics more and more in my circle: how to communicate trumps what is communicated.

I can see why Fauci and many top scientists fail to convince people like Trump and his supporters: he knows, but can't communicate what he knows so that information is conveyed, and not simply stated.

Re:Science and scientific expertise are more important than ... by tensor on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @01:07PM (#24063076)
It has to start with truth though, and science is the only method to gain truth about the world. Logic can infer but you still need to test the assumptions.

That's not to say that communication isn't important, it's crucial, but communication without science is useless. In fact, we see just what happens with excellent communication and no science: outright fake news, fake claims, manipulation, loss of freedom, and worse.

Re:Science and scientific expertise are more important than ... by azinman2 on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @03:29PM (#24064570)
Perhaps you’re not recalling that the trump admin early on said all public relations must go through Pence. They’re muzzled.
Re:Science and scientific expertise are more important than ... by mistermann on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @03:05PM (#24064322)
> he knows, but can't communicate what he knows

One example of this was when he knowingly misled (as one player in a coordinated effort) the public about the usefulness of the general public wearing masks at the initial outbreak of the pandemic. Now that the truth came out, Trump supporters have indeed latched onto this as proof that what the medical establishment says is not always true. Whether the benefit was worth the cost is another one of those things that is unknown.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XHC5Kxxv_w (1:30 onward)

https://www.facebook.com/BettzDNS/videos/10216890195312387/ (Note the rhetorical "fact checking" warning about the video.

Whether you like it or not, people will react to this behavior in ways that are non-beneficial to overall society. I wonder if that is taken into consideration when strategic decisions are made behind closed doors on what representation of reality is projected into people's minds. Another one of those things that will remain unknown I imagine.

Re:Science and scientific expertise are more important than ... by giardini on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @03:37PM (#24064679)
mistermann says>" Now that the truth came out,... "

Are you sure of the truth?

In recent news, the Dutch aren't requiring masks (except under limited circumstances, e.g., on buses):

"Dutch Dr. Fauci Thinks Masks Won't Work. Here's Why":

https://www.newsweek.com/netherlands-mask-policy-1522917

Re:Science and scientific expertise are more important than ... by mistermann on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @03:51PM (#24064831)
> Are you sure of the truth?

Not at all, I am only going by what Dr. Fauci said in those videos - perhaps he is once again saying something that is not actually truthful. Maybe Donald Trump is not the only person in Washington who is skilled in the black art of 4D Chess...I seem to recall one or two items in the past where the public was told, in a coordinated fashion, things that were not true. In fact, this behaviour seems to be a rather common attribute in most any human being I've encountered, in any community.

> Dutch Dr. Fauci Thinks Masks Won't Work. Here's Why

Another interesting behaviour I've noticed is how doctors and the media portray the masks issue as being essentially universal consensus in the medical field.

I often wonder what is really true. I wonder if the experts ever wonder what is really true.

Re:Science and scientific expertise are more important than ... by newacct583 on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @01:31PM (#24063325)
That sounds like you're blaming Fauci for failing to convince Trump? Isn't that backwards? The point to having a head of state (or any senior executive) is that you pick them for the ability to derive input from and synthesize decisions from a large group of experts who can't independently all enforce their own rules. That is the function of a senior executive!

I mean... this is The Problem writ small, really. What really happened with why "America Turned Away From Science" isn't anything to do with science at all. It's the the population used to have a sense that there were "experts" out there with a "consensus" on important items. And that consensus went away, as now we have whole media ecosystems whose role is to redirect this kind of consensus building.

So Fox, which started as a way to redirect the 70's/80's consensus opinions about, say, the welfare state and Keynsian economics, is now serving to tell people that "the experts" say masks are going to kill them and that the virus is a fraud.

Re:Science and scientific expertise are more important than ... by faangFar on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @01:17PM (#24063170)
I come from a logical background and I wonder if statistics should take priority over nitty gritty science.

Yes we understand pandemic physics, but we should be looking to prioritize a strong majority policy rather than the few.

I don't think Fauci uses statistics in his reasoning.

Re:Science and scientific expertise are more important than ... by Nursie on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @01:48PM (#24063488)
Who are these "few" in your opinion? In what way are they being prioritised over the majority?