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Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by dageshi on Thursday July 30, 2020 @12:36PM (#24000152)
The business model has existed for centuries at this point. People write books, books are sold. Even those who are simply writing for the sake of writing KNOW that there is the potential to have their book picked up by a publisher and sold, take that away, take the hope of actually being able to support yourself by writing and no... even the most obsessive of obsessive writers will likely give up, from starvation if nothing else.
Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by klibertp on Thursday July 30, 2020 @03:54PM (#24002235)
> take the hope of actually being able to support yourself by writing and no... even the most obsessive of obsessive writers will likely give up, from starvation if nothing else.

Millions of fanfiction writers would like to have a word with you... Not to mention all the authors of comments on this very site, some of which are, at least, good enough to be paid articles somewhere, or in cooperation with other commenters could be turned (as whole threads) into short books in their own right.

Put another way: the music industry could entirely vanish overnight, and people would still sing in the shower and when drinking with their buddies.

Some people tend to express themselves in some way, and they would do it regardless of literally anything. We've achieved high literacy rates, which gave a tool of expression that is writing to a correspondingly high number of people. It's not exactly surprising that we now have a flourishing environment of Web novels and all kinds of written content outside of the "market" and publishing industry as a whole.

But it's not something specific to our times. Plenty of writers in history did starve do death. One of "the three greatest" poets of my country did precisely that: he wasn't published, he wasn't even read much, and when he was, he was ridiculed for it. Yet he had been writing anyway; then, he died in extreme poverty, leaving just a lot of paper behind. It took some 40 years IIRC for someone to "rediscover" the stash of hand-written poems, and now his works are being taught in highschools.

In yet other words: no, not everything has to be related to money. Many things are, yes, but not all. Writing as a profession that published (and paid) authors do is all fine and good, but it's just one side of writing, not its definition.

Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by the_af on Thursday July 30, 2020 @05:59PM (#24003316)
Thanks for writing this! Now I'm really curious about who this poet was.
Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by klibertp on Friday July 31, 2020 @07:16AM (#24007559)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprian_Norwid

> Norwid led a tragic and often poverty-stricken life (once he had to live in a cemetery crypt). He experienced increasing health problems, unrequited love, harsh critical reviews, and increasing social isolation.

...and yet his works are easily (IMO) the best among the three of them (the two others would be Mickiewicz and Słowacki).

Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by Noos on Thursday July 30, 2020 @06:07PM (#24003389)
cool, let's stop paying programmers then. You can write and maintain software for free. Because you'd do it without pay right? I mean, why are authors the ones who don't have to get paid?
Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by the_af on Thursday July 30, 2020 @06:35PM (#24003584)
I think you're arguing against a strawman. Nobody argued that writers (or programmers) shouldn't get paid; just that writing (and programming) also exist outside the realm of monetary compensation. People write (books and code) for many reasons: because they are passionate about it, for the recognition by their peers, because they want to enter a contest, because of vanity, and yes, because of money.

Getting paid is fine and dandy. What's false is that "without a business model", nobody would be "insane enough" to write books (or programs).

The conflation between doing a thing and getting paid for doing a thing -- or even worse, claiming that without monetary compensation said thing wouldn't exist -- is annoying and misleading.

Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by icebraining on Friday July 31, 2020 @06:37AM (#24007357)
Let's! Arguably the software world would be much better. Nobody would write shit to spy on us or push ads everywhere if they weren't paid.

The best software is usually already the one written by volunteers.

Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by goto11 on Friday July 31, 2020 @06:57AM (#24007447)
> The best software is usually already the one written by volunteers.

You mean written by people who are not professional software developers? I highly doubt that. Can you provide some examples?

Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by icebraining on Friday July 31, 2020 @07:08AM (#24007509)
That's not what I meant. Obviously someone who really likes developing software is likely to make it their job if it's possible, hence the current non-professional developers are not representative of those in a world where there were no software development jobs.

I meant the best software is written without expectation of remuneration.

Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by goto11 on Friday July 31, 2020 @07:39AM (#24007704)
The Mac was developed by salaried employees, so was Unix and C and all the Xerox PARC stuff. The internet and the web was developed by people getting paid for it. Knuth is a professor, he didn't have to do his work after hours for free.

My impression was that most successful open source projects (Linux, Mozilla etc) are driven by paid contributors.

I'm sure you can find some examples, but depending on your opinion on what the "best software" is, I doubt most of it is developed by people working for free.

Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by account42 on Friday July 31, 2020 @03:33AM (#24006537)
I write and maintain a lot of open source software for free.
Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by boomlinde on Friday July 31, 2020 @06:39AM (#24007364)
I do, too. I also write software for money, as a way to finance my living expenses. When I write software for free and distribute it freely for others to use, I do it on my own volition. The day someone else decides for me that the development work I do for a living should also be free, I will have a serious problem.
Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by klibertp on Friday July 31, 2020 @07:57AM (#24007797)
Neither the_af nor I are saying that all the writing should be done without the authors being paid for it. We asserted, twice!, that professional authors and publishing industry are OK. What we say is that the published authors who earn a living by writing are not the only source of writing. If all the publishers, the whole industry, would go bankrupt tomorrow, the Web novels would still get new chapters, new fanfics would still get written, new essays would still be put on blogs, new comment threads would still appear, and so on.

Being paid for writing is great. It's just that the paid writing is not all writing - some people write simply to be read, without needing or wanting to be paid for it.

Writing code is different, because it's a means of self-expression only in small part.

Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by goto11 on Thursday July 30, 2020 @06:42PM (#24003630)
> Plenty of writers in history did starve to death.

And you are using this as an argument why authors don't need income? Surely they didn't write anything after they starved, so it seem lack of income did affect the output.

Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by the_af on Thursday July 30, 2020 @12:47PM (#24000293)
I disagree. Plenty of people take up writing because it's in their blood. They write because writing is their passion and because they have something to tell. Maybe it's artistic, maybe it's political, maybe it's religious -- or a combination.

Getting paid by publishers for writing books is a powerful motivator, but not the only one. In a world without a way to sell books, writers would still write.

Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by goto11 on Thursday July 30, 2020 @03:31PM (#24002016)
> Plenty of people take up writing because it's in their blood. They write because writing is their passion and because they have something to tell.

I can agree with that. We have stuff like fan fiction which people write and share for free. I guess 50 Shades of Grey is the preeminent example of writing as a passion and as a calling rather than a professional skill.

Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by the_af on Thursday July 30, 2020 @04:25PM (#24002484)
"Fanfiction" comes with a certain baggage and implications of quality. I don't agree that unless you're getting paid, your literary work is fanfiction or unprofessional.

There are authors whose main body of work was only published after their deaths and who are considered literary masters nonetheless, and not fanfiction writers.

All in all, I agree with a sibling comment: we must divorce the business of writing with the art of writing. They are related, of course, but the latter doesn't require the former. Once one understands this, one is less inclined to claim things such as "if writers don't get paid, books won't get written".

Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by goto11 on Thursday July 30, 2020 @06:46PM (#24003662)
> I don't agree that unless you're getting paid, your literary work is fanfiction or unprofessional.

That is kind of the definition of professional though.

Writing, like any other skill, takes time and practice to master. If you can't dedicate yourself full time you will not reach your highest potential. And it requires some form of income to be able to dedicate yourself full time. Just like a professional pianist will be better than an amateur.

Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by klibertp on Friday July 31, 2020 @09:55AM (#24008591)
> Writing, like any other skill, takes time and practice to master. If you can't dedicate yourself full time you will not reach your highest potential.

The second sentence here doesn't really follow from the first. I mean, assuming that only time and practice are needed for mastery, then practicing less-than-full-time only makes it correspondingly longer to reach mastery - it doesn't make it impossible, like you claim.

In reality, time and practice are not the only factors, though. You have to account for talent, which not only sets the upper bound on the quality of your writing, but also influences the rate of improvement with practice. It's not exactly unheard of for a debutant's work to be "way better than the latest work of established master X", isn't it? Talent is hard to capture and define, but it's a real thing, especially in the arts, although it also plays a part in trades and crafts (that's where the "10x programmers" and similar concepts come from...)

Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by goto11 on Saturday August 01, 2020 @06:18AM (#24019290)
Talent may be a multiplier but it is not a substitute for practice and learning and dedicated time. Mozart had an amazing talent which combined with intensive training from a young age and dedicated work made him create his masterpieces. If he had the same amount to talent but had to work full time as a cobbler to make ends meet, he would never have been able to produce the same oeuvre.