News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:You don’t need SMS-2FA by UncleMeat on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @01:54PM (#23989633)
Tavis discusses this explicitly in the article. His claim is that there will be some other service that doesn’t do this so the user is still vulnerable to credential stuffing - just not on your service.

I don’t fully buy the argument, but he didn’t just ignore this.

More valuable, I think, is the claim that we only get so much bandwidth to educate users and that spending time educating people on unique passwords is more effective than working on sms 2fa.

Re:You don’t need SMS-2FA by scott_s on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @01:58PM (#23989674)
But I'm already immune to credential stuffing because I have long, unique passwords, no? And credential stuffing would be taking my username and password from Foo and using it with Bar, right? But I'm talking about the username and password from Foo being used with Foo.
Re:You don’t need SMS-2FA by UncleMeat on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @02:05PM (#23989747)
> But I'm already immune to credential stuffing because I have long, unique passwords, no?

You are. Tavis discusses this clearly and offers two suggestions for making this more common (educating people about password managers or having services generate all passwords for their users rather than letting users pick them).

If you believe that "everybody uses unique passwords" is achievable then Tavis is 100% correct and SMS-2FA achieves nothing.

Re:You don’t need SMS-2FA by Arainach on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @02:09PM (#23989791)
>If you believe that "everybody uses unique passwords" is achievable then Tavis is 100% correct and SMS-2FA achieves nothing.

This doesn't seem to follow. As the previous poster called out, if I have unique passwords, SMS-2FA makes me safer than not having it. If someone (let's say Bank of America) has their password database leaked, then an attacked can immediately log in to my account with a unique password.

If I have a unique password + SMS 2FA, the attacker has to compromise SMS to log into my account - a slower process that gives me more time to be informed of the leak and change my password.

Re:You don’t need SMS-2FA by UncleMeat on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @03:18PM (#23990549)
But is that true? The hacker got the pw database somehow. So it isn’t a given that they need your sms to impersonate you, since they clearly have breached the system already.
Re:You don’t need SMS-2FA by scott_s on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @03:30PM (#23990673)
> So it isn’t a given that they need your sms to impersonate you,

Correct. It's possible the entire system is compromised. It's also possible the entire system is not compromised, and the data breach happened without the target institution losing control of their systems.

> since they clearly have breached the system already.

No, not necessarily. Someone could, say, export the contents of a database and put it somewhere public. A data breach is not necessarily the result of hackers getting total control of the target.

Re:You don’t need SMS-2FA by valuearb on Thursday July 30, 2020 @04:15PM (#24002401)
Tavis has never attempted to educate an entire company about password security.

No one cares about it, most are people who will never be reading hackernews, who barely know how their computer works, and write down one password on a stickies A taped to their monitor and reuse it everywhere because they are in a hurry to do their actual job.

Re:You don’t need SMS-2FA by scott_s on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @02:08PM (#23989785)
I proposed a scenario where it seems to me that SMS-2FA does achieve something. What is wrong with my understanding with how it helps with that scenario?

To be clear, I'm not talking about credential stuffing. I'm talking about my credentials from Foo being used with Foo.

Re:You don’t need SMS-2FA by UncleMeat on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @02:13PM (#23989850)
I think this is a somewhat questionable threat model. Some people would say it is reasonable. Other people would say that the service has already been pwned so relying on that breach being exclusively contained to the password database and nothing else, requiring the hackers to actually use the ordinary authentication flow to do anything bad, is a fairy tale.

I personally don't feel like I have enough information to decide whether this is a reasonable threat model or not.

Re:You don’t need SMS-2FA by quinndiggity on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @03:57PM (#23990901)
Defence in depth - too often I hear "whelp, we had a tiny crack in one of our measures, so it's game over, why even try?".

Imagine the scenario where service A has read-only access to the authentication db/table, whereas service B (which could be maintained/operated by an entirely different person/team that leverages a more stringent code review process, or simply one performed by better eyes) has write access to that same db/table - the credential database could be leaked but due to a variety of measures in place further compromise through that specific avenue is mitigated.

One of the primary goals of "security" is to stop an attacker from accessing things or being able to perform actions that they "shouldn't" be able to access/perform. When dealing with humans it is incredibly difficult to decisively achieve that goal. It could be a zero day, a vulnerability in a code dependency, or otherwise some service dependency or other such software (say an internal analytics system with its own entirely separate models and storage of data) that leads to a breach - the bigger the team/company, the more people involved, the higher the chances that someone makes an inadvertent (or intentional) mistake somewhere.

I do not agree that a compromise of any form should be considered a reason to not attempt to build a secure system resilient to layers and layers of human failure.

Re:You don’t need SMS-2FA by pythonaut_16 on Thursday July 30, 2020 @03:47PM (#24002189)
Scenarios where someone might have my password but not my SMS: keyloggers, password written down at my desk, video surveillance or shoulder-surfing, audio analysis of keyboard and/or CPU tones[0].

The stronger or less guessable a password is, the more likely it is to be written down or recorded somewhere where it could be compromised.

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustic_cryptanalysis

Re:You don’t need SMS-2FA by toomuchtodo on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @01:57PM (#23989664)
Users are lazy. You can educate all you want, they will still use the same passwords everywhere, or weak passwords. You have to bake the security into your workflows, processes, and code if you want it to matter.

This is from infosec/opsec awareness training experience I get paid to provide. Not all users are lazy, mind you, but enough to be emotionally depleting. Incentives matter.

Re:You don’t need SMS-2FA by tialaramex on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @02:20PM (#23989927)
This is my biggest reason for optimism about WebAuthn.

Using cheap FIDO USB dongles is "I forgot it was there" easy, you have to tap the button or touch the metal contact surface or whatever on your dongle when you sign in, it becomes a reflex, you stop thinking about it yet now you're authenticated and bad guys aren't.

The touch ID style behaviour in a newer Pixel or iPhone likewise, that's probably already how you unlock your phone without really thinking about it, and now it can unlock a web site.

Even the OpenSSH FIDO integration feels lazier, yet more secure than having to use a local password for your keys. Some non-trivial number of people have no password or set it to something easy because it was annoying, the resulting risk (malware exfiltrates their unsecured private key) vanishes instantly if you give them all FIDO dongles and require that login method.

Re:You don’t need SMS-2FA by 33Backpack33 on Sunday August 02, 2020 @01:31PM (#24030051)
Nothing more lazy than doing something like generate a password for the user. The way most browsers work you have to go out of your way to not let it save and fill passwords.

If you create the password for the user they can't reuse it and thus no credential stuffing problems.

Re:You don’t need SMS-2FA by UncleMeat on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @02:07PM (#23989766)
> You have to bake the security into your workflows, processes, and code if you want it to matter.

There's a suggestion here in the article: don't let users pick their passwords. Just generate one for them and say "use your browser's password manager or write it down".

Re:You don’t need SMS-2FA by wolco on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @02:33PM (#23990081)
All that does is increase the locked account support tickets and drive people away.

A sticky note password attached to the screen creates another password sharing problem.

The last company I trust with my secret password is my browser. One hack away from exposing everything. That's like bring all of your important documentation with you wherever you go. If you are robbed it is better you don't have your bank code attached to the card.

Re:You don’t need SMS-2FA by UncleMeat on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @03:19PM (#23990560)
You are typing your password into your browser. You must trust them with your password.
Re:You don’t need SMS-2FA by wolco on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @05:55PM (#23992006)
I don't trust them to store and safe guard the password.
Re:You don’t need SMS-2FA by FabHK on Thursday July 30, 2020 @06:18PM (#24003461)
So you're not using a password manager either?
Re:You don’t need SMS-2FA by OrderlyTiamat on Thursday July 30, 2020 @03:03AM (#23995429)
> there will be some other service that doesn’t do this so the user is still vulnerable to credential stuffing - just not on your service.

"If they don't practice good security, why should we?"

The other points would have been stronger if he'd just admit that there is this small advantage to sms2fa. As is, he's making a ridiculous argument in an attempt to make the issue wholly black and white.